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Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

LDC said:
Yeah mostly the later, it in its current form with the history (recent and less so) it had no other realistic options. They could of course have done nothing, or engaged in some limited strikes against Hamas, but politically that would have been an impossible position for the government to pursue and might have longer term threatened the existence of Israel. And once a course of 'total war' has been started upon bombing Gaza, with the calls for civilians to leave, was an entirely logical path to take. To bomb without any call for evacuation would have been worse.
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I think that's a lot better explanation of what you originally posted. The threat, you mention, is to the existence of Israel as a colonising apartheid state, currently led by a very right wing government.
 
I've just spoken with my friend Medyan. The Israelis are amassing as many as they can before their incursion into Gaza, hence the delay. This is also playing into the hands of the tens of thousands of Palestinian factions for the obvious reasons. His opinion is it'll be a very hard fight for the IDF, & they won't be able to contain this for any amount of time, it's impossible. His exact words were, 'it'll be like Stalingrad'. Yes, this is his opinion & is speculation - but a Palestinian on the ground with decades of experience.

The big question is when will Hezbollah become properly involved, as this will have massive ramifications in the West Bank.

It's a very difficult situation for all journalists in Gaza as there's no electric! So any news not coming out of Gaza, well...

Sorry for sound bite post but its a WhatsApp convo.

One reason I'm bumping this thread, is for news & developments only please. I can't be fucked to wade through hundreds of posts of point scoring arguments, bun fights, & links to the Mail or Tucker fucking Carlson, ta very much.

News only please, & that doesn't include a load of unsubstantiated shite posted on X.
 
The39thStep said:
I think that's a lot better explanation of what you originally posted. The threat, you mention, is to the existence of Israel as a colonising apartheid state, currently led by a very right wing government.
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But also populated by people not responsible for all the actions of the Israeli State. Unless one takes the position that the complete destruction of the Israeli State is a fair aim which plenty of people and organisations surrounding Israel do (and some on the left seem to as well).

littlebabyjesus said:
This is a bizarre statement. The Israeli state had no other real option than to massacre civilians in Gaza? Of course they had other real options.
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It's not a decision made solely within a humanitarian framework, so it's never going to fit completely within that. Given the history and the nature of the situation, and wanting to survive as a government in the framework of the Israeli State, with significant Israeli public demand for a severe response, and all the risks that other options would have come with I'm not sure many (if any) other options were realistic for them. It's not a moral judgement.
 
LDC said:
But also populated by people not responsible for all the actions of the Israeli State. Unless one takes the position that the complete destruction of the Israeli State is a fair aim which plenty of people and organisations surrounding Israel do (and some on the left seem to as well).



It's not a decision made solely within a humanitarian framework, so it's never going to fit completely within that. Given the history and the nature of the situation, and wanting to survive as a government in the framework of the Israeli State, with all the risks that other options would have come with I'm not sure many (if any) other options were realistic for them. It's not a moral judgement.
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We were talking about the nature of the Israeli state. Do you not think it's possible to have a non apartheid non colonial state of Israel?
 
LDC said:
with significant Israeli public demand for a severe response, and all the risks that other options would have come with I'm not sure many (if any) other options were realistic for them. It's not a moral judgement.
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Of course there's another option: seek a political solution, not a military solution. Although Israelis are represented on the Western MSM as revenge-crazed and bloodthirsty, this is far from an accurate portrayal. Many Israelis despise their government's incessant aggression.
 
phildwyer said:
Of course there's another option: seek a political solution, not a military solution. Although Israelis are represented on the Western MSM as revenge-crazed and bloodthirsty, this is far from an accurate portrayal. Many Israelis despise their government's incessant aggression.
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Another option is for Hamas to surrender. :hmm:
 
LDC said:
It's not a decision made solely within a humanitarian framework, so it's never going to fit completely within that. Given the history and the nature of the situation, and wanting to survive as a government in the framework of the Israeli State, with significant Israeli public demand for a severe response, and all the risks that other options would have come with I'm not sure many (if any) other options were realistic for them. It's not a moral judgement.
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But that is a position that the Israeli government have got themselves into. Netanyahu explicitly and deliberately over-rode the Olso Accords (which the Palestinians were fairly dumb to sign up to). His government turned Gaza into a massive prison and that equally inevitable led to last weeks attack.
 
The39thStep said:
We were talking about the nature of the Israeli state. Do you not think it's possible to have a non apartheid non colonial state of Israel?
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I think this is important. The very existence of Israel is at stake and she [sic] is entitled to defend herself [sic]. That's the line the apologists use, complete with the softening feminine gender. Well she will never exist in peace while she continues policies of oppression and racism.
 
A non colonial non apartheid state is envisaged by Israeli like Ilan Pappe the historian

He advocates (and others) a One State solution where Palestinians and Israelis live as equal citizens

The problem for some is that this would not be a Zionist state any longer.
 
The39thStep said:
We were talking about the nature of the Israeli state. Do you not think it's possible to have a non apartheid non colonial state of Israel?
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No sure tbh, all States are founded on myths, lies, exclusion of certain people, colonialism, murder, etc.

belboid said:
But that is a position that the Israeli government have got themselves into. Netanyahu explicitly and deliberately over-rode the Olso Accords (which the Palestinians were fairly dumb to sign up to). His government turned Gaza into a massive prison and that equally inevitable led to last weeks attack.
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I'm not denying that, it's exactly what I meant when I said this didn't happen in a vaccum. It's also possible to see why this happened and also condemn or take sides or remain critical of the whole thing.
 
LDC said:
No sure tbh, all States are founded on myths, lies, exclusion of certain people, colonialism, murder, etc.



I'm not denying that, it's exactly what I meant when I said this didn't happen in a vaccum. It's also possible to see why this happened and also condemn or take sides or remain critical of the whole thing.
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It is of course possible to see why this happened, and not be at all surprised by Israel's actions in the past week, without slipping in to the trap of saying that they had no choice.
 
Gramsci said:
A non colonial non apartheid state is envisaged by Israeli like Ilan Pappe the historian

He advocates (and others) a One State solution where Palestinians and Israelis live as equal citizens

The problem for some is that this would not be a Zionist state any longer.
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In a nutshell. The Israelis refuse to consider living in such a state. They want it to be predominantly Jewish with extra rights for Jews over anyone else.
 
phildwyer said:
Of course there's another option: seek a political solution, not a military solution. Although Israelis are represented on the Western MSM as revenge-crazed and bloodthirsty, this is far from an accurate portrayal. Many Israelis despise their government's incessant aggression.
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No one's thought of a political solution before.
 
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I think this is all going to be so horrendous I think a political situation that previously seemed impossible will come out of it tbh.
 
LDC said:
No sure tbh, all States are founded on myths, lies, exclusion of certain people, colonialism, murder, etc.



I'm not denying that, it's exactly what I meant when I said this didn't happen in a vaccum. It's also possible to see why this happened and also condemn or take sides or remain critical of the whole thing.
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You aren't arguing for a no state solution though are you? Surely in the pragmatic what is possible/reformist sphere of politics it is what the State can become that is the issue?
 
LDC said:
I think this is all going to be so horrendous I think a political situation that previously seemed impossible will come out of it tbh.
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That would only happen if the Israelis got battered in the war and had to negotiate from a place of weakness. It won’t happen because of attempts to hold the Israelis to account or by worldwide shaming of them.
They don’t give a fuck.
 
dilute micro said:
Arafat was all for it then? Iran? Everyone but Israel wants peace. Right?
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A quick refresher.

Yitzhak Rabin and Yasser Arafat sign accord for Palestinian self-rule | May 4, 1994 | HISTORY

On May 4, 1994, Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin and PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat reach an agreement in Cairo on the first stage of Palestinian self-rule. The agreement was made in accordance with the Oslo Accords, signed in Washington, D.C. on September 13, 1993. This was the first direct...
www.history.com www.history.com

Also
 
Let’s not forget either that the only reason the Israelis negotiated with the PLO and agreed the Oslo Accords was because George Bush senior got the arse with them and threatened to remove their loan guarantees.

The US have never replicated properly levering the Israelis again.
 
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