Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[kabbes]

That’s fine. You have problems I would assert because of an inability to read words and ascertain what they mean. You read between the lines, you extrapolate, you consider what the writer really means and lose sight of what they actually wrote.

So your point is literally nothing more than the tautology that if people vote for a party then that party represents them? I mean, it’s true but so what?

 

[TopCat]

So your point is literally nothing more than the tautology that if people vote for a party then that party represents them? I mean, it’s true but so what?

Nope I never wrote that or anything like it.

Read my posts again perhaps.

 

[belboid]

So your point is literally nothing more than the tautology that if people vote for a party then that party represents them? I mean, it’s true but so what?

that isn't even a tautology.

 

[kabbes]

Nope I never wrote that or anything like it.

Read my posts again perhaps.

You know, I don’t think I’ll bother. What would be the point? You clearly have no interest in actually engaging with any discussion based on it.

 

[TopCat]

Here kabbes.

This is what I wrote

Hamas were elected so can make a decent claim to represent those who voted for them.

 

[kabbes]

Here kabbes.

This is what I wrote

Hamas were elected so can make a decent claim to represent those who voted for them.

Right. And so what?

What is your point beyond a simple tautology.

 

[TopCat]

Right. And so what?

What is your point beyond a simple tautology.

What do you mean by so what?

 

[TopCat]

Lightening edits kabbes

 

[TopCat]

Hamas are not illegitimate. They were elected and retain the support of a lot of Palestinians and others in the middle east and beyond.

 

[kabbes]

Hamas are not illegitimate. They were elected and retain the support of a lot of Palestinians and others in the middle east and beyond.

But I don’t know what to do with that information. The same is true for the Tories here but that doesn’t mean I’d want people to judge me by it. So, like I say, so what?

 

[TopCat]

But I don’t know what to do with that information. The same is true for the Tories here but that doesn’t mean I’d want people to judge me by it. So, like I say, so what?

It’s times like this when I am grateful for the ignore function.

 

[moochedit]

Hamas are not illegitimate. They were elected

Yes but in 2006.

 

[Ax^]

Plenty of images circulating now of people set alight while alive and burnt to death by Hamas, including some what look like kids.

still does not make collective punishment and bombing of 2.2 million people anymore just

 

[kabbes]

It’s times like this when I am grateful for the ignore function.

… ok then. Good for you.

 

[teqniq]

Well this is pretty disgusting:

Thread by @reider on Thread Reader App

@reider: It's kind of exhausting to even relate this, but yesterday a bunch of reps from the hostage families org were abruptly summoned for a meeting with Netanyahu. At the meet they were joined by three other...…

threadreaderapp.com

 

[CNT36]

No, I don't at all of course, but people claiming Hamas are 'legitimate' as they were voted in some way does lead down that path for some, and it's not without some level of truth to it, the complicating factors are what that might mean in the reality of the situation, if anything.

Again, probably something some elements of the Israeli State and Hamas both agree on, in that Hamas represents a huge body of Palestinians.

I wonder to what extent that support comes from a case of if not Hamas who? Hamas were elected originally because they offered resistance and social programmes that other parties were not. How are the Palestinian Authorirty doing on the west bank? How is the peace process working out? A shit present with expanding settlements not making the future look any brighter. With Hamas having eliminated a lot of opposition in Gaza further limiting their options where else do they turn? It would be interesting to get some honest detailed Gazan perspectives on what happened Saturday week. Do they support the attack? The atrocities? Do they partake in denial? What do they think resistance should look like? Should it be armed? Who should it target? What do they think of Hamas?

 

[The39thStep]

Following that line of argument mean lead some to say that the some of the people of Gaza are in some way responsible for Hamas's attack then.

Following that line of arguement best of luck to 'some' identifying those who voted for Gaza in the last election in 2006 to collectively punish them

 

[LDC]

Following that line of arguement best of luck to 'some' identifying those who voted for Gaza in the last election in 2006 to collectively punish them

Well that's to some extent what they're doing now isn't it? I think Hamas left the Israeli State no other real options tbh, of course they were going to do something like this.

 

[Dystopiary]

These families are having trauma heaped upon trauma.

A man whose son was killed by Israeli forces 23 years ago is now mourning family members including two of his brothers following strikes on Gaza.

Article archived from Metro link here.

Jamal al-Durrah was attempting to shelter his 12 year old child Muhammad from gunfire as they crouched against a wall in 2000, but the boy was killed.

from BBC news 2/10/2000:

[F]ootage shows the boy's father, Jamal al-Durrah, waving desperately to Israeli troops, shouting: "Don't shoot". But the terrified boy is hit by four bullets, and collapses in his father's arms.

An ambulance driver who tried to rescue the boy and his father was also killed, and a second ambulance driver was wounded.

from Jacobin 16/10/2023:

Gaza has become a massive graveyard where cemeteries have rapidly filled up. Mourning families struggle to bury their dead in informal graveyards dug in empty lots under relentless air strikes and an intensifying siege. Many end up in mass graves. Others are being kept in ice cream trucks. One thousand bodies remain buried under rubble.

Israel Has Killed 6 Hamas Leaders in Gaza. It’s Killed More Than 800 Children.

 

[phildwyer]

Israel and the MSM are jumping on every celebrity who posts anything other than their official line. Stomping on any kind of independent thought. Seems counter-productive to me, but they're devoting an awful lot of time and energy to it so they obviously think it's important:

Alicia Keys slammed for 'sick ode to Hamas terror attacks on Israel'

The 42-year-old singer initially took to Instagram with a photo of herself donning a green leather racing jacket with black and white highlights.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[belboid]

I think Hamas left the Israeli State no other real options tbh, of course they were going to do something like this.

Alternatively, one might just as well say:

I think the Israeli State left Hamas no other real options tbh, of course they were going to do something like this.

 

[LDC]

Can you not change my words so it makes me look like I said something I didn't please. You can edit that in another way.

 

[The39thStep]

Well that's to some extent what they're doing now isn't it? I think Hamas left the Israeli State no other real options tbh, of course they were going to do something like this.

If you are arguing that the Israeli Sate is collectively punishing residents in Gaza I agree. If you are arguing that the Israeli state as a state doesn't have any other option then I disagree.
If you are arguing that the precise nature of the Israel state means it doesn't have any other options then that's a more interesting discussion.

 

[The39thStep]

Slightly more positive news ( if true) is that there are some reports, mainly from Shehab Khan at ITV , that I will summarise.

" the Labour leadership arranged an urgent meeting with council leaders last night about the party’s messaging on Gaza amid fears of pending resignationsAt the heated meeting David Lammy and Keir Starmer’s chief of staff Sue Gray were told they only have days to act....
Lammy and Gray spoke to council leaders who demanded Starmer rows back on previous interview comments about potential war crimes in Gaza and has a firmer stance on condemning war crimes....
They also demanded that councillors should not be stopped from attending Palestine demonstrations - they were particularly aggrieved by the messages they were sent on the weekend, which I revealed earlier.....
Sue Gray directed council leaders to what Starmer said in the Commons yesterday to try and calm things down but many said it wasn’t enough....
One council leader, who says they have more than a dozen councillors threatening to resign, demanded something is done to appease very unhappy councillors asap...
One source described the entire meeting as a ‘total mess’ while another said they were shocked by how desperate some council leaders were - ‘situation must be worse than we think, they’re convinced they’re losing local support’

MickiQ

 

[phildwyer]

As for Hamas burning people - is anyone standing up for this here? Who is cheering on Hamas? I can think of one poster early on (Dwyer doesn't count).

Can you stop being a twat and misrepresenting my views? Cheers. Twat.

 

[TopCat]

Top bloke

Surgeon treating patients in Gaza says police in London ‘harassed’ his family

Prof Ghassan Abu-Sittah, who has a practice in UK capital, claims it is a ‘brutal attempt at silencing us’

www.theguardian.com

 

[LDC]

If you are arguing that the Israeli Sate is collectively punishing residents in Gaza I agree. If you are arguing that the Israeli state as a state doesn't have any other option then I disagree.
If you are arguing that the precise nature of the Israel state means it doesn't have any other options then that's a more interesting discussion.

Yeah mostly the later, it in its current form with the history (recent and less so) it had no other realistic options. They could of course have done nothing, or engaged in some limited strikes against Hamas, but politically that would have been an impossible position for the government to pursue and might have longer term threatened the existence of Israel. And once a course of 'total war' has been started upon bombing Gaza, with the calls for civilians to leave, was an entirely logical path to take. To bomb without any call for evacuation would have been worse.

 

[planetgeli]

Can you stop being a twat and misrepresenting my views? Cheers. Twat.

You don't have to sign your posts y'know.

 

[phildwyer]

You don't have to sign your posts y'know.

Twat.

 

[TopCat]

Focus please