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Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

phildwyer said:
Just apply international law, to which states are subject. It's what should have been done decades ago.
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Applied by whom? International law is a bit of an oxymoron it needs either a state accepting it applies to them or another much more powerful state forcing them to accept it.
Israel doesn't accept it and there is no-one strong enough and willing to make them.
 
teqniq said:
Please consider signing and sharing:

petition.parliament.uk

Petition: Remain neutral in Israel-Palestine conflict and withdraw support for Israel

We want the UK to be neutral in the conflict between Israel and Palestine, and withdraw offers of support for Israel.
petition.parliament.uk petition.parliament.uk
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cupid_stunt said:
Done, despite it being a waste of time, trouble is if it hits 100k, it is only 'considered' for a debate, and it'll be rejected at that point.
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Well it's reached the 100k mark. Not that a debate will do any good (if they don't just ignore it).

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Kevbad the Bad said:
You're not reading my words precisely enough. There are lots of people who think that one set of killers are crueller than the other. The nature of some of the deaths seems to lend credence to that view, as does the fact that some of the Hamas killers filmed what was going on. I'm questioning that, condemning both sides for their actions.

Once you say that Israel has the right to defend itself you are relinquishing any right to criticise what they do. After all, they have the right to defend themselves, don't they? Who are we to try and second guess what that might entail?

What about Palestinian rights to resist occupation and displacement? Well, I'm in favour of that. I'd hope you would be too. But that doesn't give anyone crate Blanche to murder, to engage in suicide bombings, or whatever.

Opposing the actions of the Israeli military does not mean supporting the actions of Hamas. Opposing the British army in Northern Ireland did not mean supporting the IRA. Get the idea?
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I’m not sure what point you’re making now you’ve moved on to “cruelty”. The notion that both sides have a reason to act but neither side should do bad things isn’t some sort of genius position that creates a moral equivalency in all armed conflicts. But if you want to think that a Jew-hating Islamist terrorist brigade is no worse than the Israeli state, no one is going to stop you, especially on here. 🤷
 
Gramsci said:
What the Standard is saying ( now Ive read todays edition) is that their is not enough support for British Jews at this difficult time.

ES has always been on the right. But its not the hard right like the Home Secretary. More the socially liberal ( as they see themselves) economically conservative right.

BTW Ive seen a lot of the missing poster in West End today. I don't have a problem with them. Thought they were clever bit of street politics.

So Id say ES is part of centre politics. I wouldn't think what ES is saying is that out of line with what Starmer thinks. And what he is imposing on his MPs

Basically ES is saying the left is anti semitic. And the bastions of tolerant pro immigration multicultural London is the centre ground.

Leaves out the fact that on the demo Id say most people were not full on political activists. But Londoners with a large group from the community made up of people from a middle east background who identify with Palestinian cause.

But hey blame the left for egging them on. Seems the ES was upset that a demo next day to support Israel got a poor turnout. That people arent putting Israel flags in windows. It could be that a lot of Londoners do not follow the I Stand by Israel line- But that cuts no ice with this kind of view.

Here is ES view from its Executive Editor


www.standard.co.uk

Sound of silence on attacks is disturbing

It is inconceivable that the reaction to the attacks on Israeli families by Hamas would have been replicated for any other community
www.standard.co.uk www.standard.co.uk

At fault are those who went on last Saturdays well attended demo:


And he singles out these people in particular. These are the people who read books and call Israel a Settler Colonial state that practices Apartheid. Rather then Standing By Israel.


I take this more seriously than attacks by the Daily Mail. There has been a drip drip level of accusations against those who "Stand" for Palestinian rights. This along with Starmer stopping MPs from actively supporting Palestinians rights is starting imo to create an atmosphere that is becoming a form of McCarthyism.
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Must be horrible being a British Jew or Muslim at the moment, the chance of people assuming stuff about you and maybe the position you hold. I sympathise with both.

Is the ES trying to say that citizens should fall in line with the opinion of their govt (and the opposition, which seems to be precisely the same)? Kind of impossible for anyone who watches the news... There really seems to be no recognition of the suffering of the Palestinian people from our politicians . As I said earlier, CH4 and The Guardian definitely, and probably the BBC, can acknowledge the extreme suffering of the Palestinian people as a fact in a way that our politicians can't bring themselves to do.
 
platinumsage said:
I’m not sure what point you’re making now you’ve moved on to “cruelty”. The notion that both sides have a reason to act but neither side should do bad things isn’t some sort of genius position that creates a moral equivalency in all armed conflicts. But if you want to think that a Jew-hating Islamist terrorist brigade is no worse than the Israeli state, no one is going to stop you, especially on here. 🤷
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Judge people by their actions not just their words. The Israeli state and its supporters have killed more Palestinians than Palestinians have killed Israelis, displaced or ethnically cleansed far more, ruined the lives of so many. But, as you say, this is not just a body count. So I don't hold one lot morally superior to the other. That would be stupid,
 
Kevbad the Bad said:
Judge people by their actions not just their words. The Israeli state and its supporters have killed more Palestinians than Palestinians have killed Israelis, displaced or ethnically cleansed far more, ruined the lives of so many. But, as you say, this is not just a body count. So I don't hold one lot morally superior to the other. That would be stupid,
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Why would it be stupid? Does that apply to all conflicts, you think the participants are always morally equivalent? Weird if true.
 
Tweet from Suella:

It reads:

"Last weekend an intimidating mob marched through London chanting “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” - a slogan that is widely understood as a demand for the destruction of Israel. Attempts to pretend otherwise are disingenuous."








It concludes, reading

"The slogan was taken up by Islamists, including Hamas, and remains a staple of antisemitic discourse. To hear it shouted in public causes alarm not just to Jews but to all decent people. Those who promote hate on Britain’s streets should realise that our tolerance has limits."



 
platinumsage said:
Why would it be stupid? Does that apply to all conflicts, you think the participants are always morally equivalent? Weird if true.
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The truth is often weird. What we have here is the outcome of a conflict going back decades, originating (among other things) out of mass murder in WW2, colonisation, dispossession, several full scale wars, occupation, resistance, and so much more. Racism, religious extremism, violence, daily oppressions, you name it. So any one particular event or series of events does not stand alone. To attempt to weigh the moral balance at one snapshot in time between different groups of armed men with opposing ideologies, none of which i adhere to, is a pointless task. All you can say is that right now certain courses of action are destructive, indefensible and cannot be supported.
 
Gramsci said:
Here is ES view from its Executive Editor


www.standard.co.uk

Sound of silence on attacks is disturbing

It is inconceivable that the reaction to the attacks on Israeli families by Hamas would have been replicated for any other community
www.standard.co.uk www.standard.co.uk

At fault are those who went on last Saturdays well attended demo:


And he singles out these people in particular. These are the people who read books and call Israel a Settler Colonial state that practices Apartheid. Rather then Standing By Israel.
listening to lectures from the victim-fetishists of identity politics
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That quoted line is an amazing bit of irony. How do you write an article like that without having any awareness that you're making an argument rooted in claims about both identity and victimhood?
 
phildwyer said:
Israel's a state. We don't expect states to deliberately slaughter thousands of civilians.

And that's what Israel is doing, because as they know very well, the Hamas fighters live underground and thus are not the ones being killed by Israel's bombardment. The civilian population lives in the high-rises that are being deliberately flattened.
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Mass slaughter of civilians is something that states have always done and it is what we expect them to do. The ability and willingness to kill and steal is the foundation of state power. Gaza is also a cohesive and oppressive state with a powerful ruling class many of whom live safely in Qatar, far from the missiles.
 
Kevbad the Bad said:
The truth is often weird. What we have here is the outcome of a conflict going back decades, originating (among other things) out of mass murder in WW2, colonisation, dispossession, several full scale wars, occupation, resistance, and so much more. Racism, religious extremism, violence, daily oppressions, you name it. So any one particular event or series of events does not stand alone. To attempt to weigh the moral balance at one snapshot in time between different groups of armed men with opposing ideologies, none of which i adhere to, is a pointless task. All you can say is that right now certain courses of action are destructive, indefensible and cannot be supported.
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That’s all you can say, I gathered that.
 
platinumsage said:
That’s all you can say, I gathered that.
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Well you've won this little debate. What I meant to say was:- Israel has every right to defend itself, no matter how many people are killed, whether through bombing, shooting, starvation, burning or whatever. The right wing racist Zionist thug government which rules the roost will decide what measures are necessary to keep Israel safe, and good luck to them. Hamas are at fault, and by extension those Gazans that they rule over have only themselves to blame. Glad you put me right there. I was so nearly brainwashed.
 
It's now increasingly clear that Israel can't defend itself, it can only lash out in panic and revenge. It's taking a surprisingly long time to start the ground invasion.

And the last time they won a war outright was 1973.
 
Idris2002 said:
It's taking a surprisingly long time to start the ground invasion.
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Theres potential reasons to believe this is a deliberate siege style technique to starve out Gaza. It has a military logic to it exemplified here



*speculation of course, we cannot know anything like this for certain
 
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Idris2002 said:
It's now increasingly clear that Israel can't defend itself, it can only lash out in panic and revenge. It's taking a surprisingly long time to start the ground invasion.
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I've seen some reports saying the Israelis are waiting for clear weather, if that's the case then weather reports suggest Gaza will be extremely unlucky with a long stretch of sunny weather starting Wednesday afternoon
 
Idris2002 said:
It's now increasingly clear that Israel can't defend itself, it can only lash out in panic and revenge. It's taking a surprisingly long time to start the ground invasion.

And the last time they won a war outright was 1973.
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The IDF, Shin Bet and Mossad have been badly over-rated, as recent events show.
 
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