There were a load of 'kidnapped' posters round Hackney central the other day. And a fair bit of 'Free Palestine/Gaza' graffiti too.
Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion
- Thread starter PR1Berske
- Start date
Ax^
Silly Rabbit
sure you could find a video in youtube
if you stop looking at dodgy alright bullocks for 5 minutes
HTH
Karl Masks
Birds Angel Delight
I read that to be Labour were the issuers.Whether anything actually comes from it remains to be seen but hopefully it will give pause for though before they open their mouths:
Labour leadership issued notice of intention to prosecute UK politicians for complicity in war crimes in Gaza - ICJP
London 16 October 2023- This morning, ICJP issued Keir Starmer, Emily Thornberry and […]www.icjpalestine.com
Sadly not
PTK
Paul Kegan
What a wonderful world.
Watch: Gaza refugee camp reduced to rubble
In footage from Saturday, people can be seen walking through huge piles of rubble.
www.bbc.co.uk
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
A glib excuse for murder.
Ax^
Silly Rabbit
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
So intent is hard to prove, particularly in military situations. Obeying orders is something that soldiers do. Sometimes they disobey, normally they don't. If you are obeying orders you can still commit war crimes, but the intent is not necessarily your own. We don't really know the intent of the Hamas fighters and won't as most of them are probably dead. The intent of the Israeli pilots - up for discussion. They'll be following orders too. Some, undoubtedly will want revenge and may not care too much who gets killed. Negligence or self-defence doesn't apply to either side here.
PTK
Paul Kegan
Killing unarmed civilians is immoral, whoever does it.
The motives are different: one side wants to overturn the unjust status quo, and one side wants to maintain it, but the action is still wrong, whatever the motives. (Actually, it is often the case in wars that the motive on an individual level is simply revenge).
I fear the coming to power of any revolutionaries who can easily kill helpless people.
platinumsage
HaveMyPassword123
Sure, I was just answering your question of which I thought was worse, and it’s based partly on my own view of intent, because i’m not telepathic. This seems to me a much better way of arriving at a personal opinion on the matter than a pure body count which was what you seem to be advocating. I think that’s weird, because no one actually does that, from historians to jurors everyone needs to make moral judgements to arrive at an understanding of such events. So I suspect if Israeli pilots had killed fewer than the terrorists you position wouldn’t change would it?
Israel's a state. We don't expect states to deliberately slaughter thousands of civilians.
And that's what Israel is doing, because as they know very well, the Hamas fighters live underground and thus are not the ones being killed by Israel's bombardment. The civilian population lives in the high-rises that are being deliberately flattened.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Have you been living under a rock since, well, forever?
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
I'm not advocating a pure body count, but our impression of violent crime does take this into account. The scale of the Israeli revenge here, and the revenge yet to come, has a significant bearing on our judgement. The asymmetry of technology is important too. It seems to distance the Israeli perpetrators of violence from the consequences of their actions. With Hamas it's face to face. No hiding from their barbarity.
Just apply international law, to which states are subject. It's what should have been done decades ago.
mojo pixy
שיר חדש
Honestly, I have no idea if literally no mainstream news outlet covered that event in even the smallest way, and its a claim that's hard to verify now the news media are all saturated with what happen.
bcuster
Well-Known Member
Biden announces release of 2 American hostages: Full coverage of the Israel-Hamas war
Judith and Natalie Raanan of Evanston, Ill., were visiting family when they were taken during the Oct. 7 attacks.
- The U.S. military has selected roughly 2,000 troops to prepare for a potential deployment to support Israel, U.S. defense officials said. The troops are tasked with missions like advising and medical support, the officials said, and they are from across the U.S. armed services. They aren't intended to serve in a combat role, the officials said.
Actually it's easy to verify, because even now there's nothing about it in the Western MSM.
Since it was obviously the immediate cause of Hamas' operation (which they even named after the incident, to leave no doubt as to their motivation), that's an extremely suspicious omission. I think it was co-ordinated.
Over 800 Israeli settlers storm Al-Aqsa compound on Sukkot
Rabbis, heads of settlement associations and far-right university lecturers were among 832 people who stormed the Al-Aqsa Mosque compound on Thursday morning.
I found absolutely nothing about it in the British or American press, which is obviously deliberate policy. And actually I didn't see it in the Israeli press either, though I may have missed it. Got a link?
editor
hiraethified
"Deliberate policy" enforced by who, exactly?
platinumsage
HaveMyPassword123
Are you really painting their actions as pure revenge? How would you propose that Israel defends itself from the ongoing rocket attacks and the possibility of other further attacks, when the terrorists are hiding in a dense population of civilians? Do you really expect the Israeli population to tolerate any government that makes no military response at all?
Are Israel worse than the child-torturing terrorists because they have better technology? Perhaps if they didn’t have the Iron Dome and more of the Hamas rocket attacks resulted in deaths then the Israelis wouldn’t be quite so bad? Not sure what you’re getting at there.
TBH I’m still struggling to understand your original statement implying that Israel are worse than the terrorists because they killed twice as many and didn’t film it. There’s plenty of footage of victims of both sides isn’t there? I think you really need to go a bit deeper than this.
Many of them are praying for just such a government. Israelis are not bloodthirsty lunatics.
When the IRA bombed British pubs, the British state did not respond by pounding Dublin into rubble. The British people would have been horrified had they done so.
There is no military solution to this problem. Israel's revenge attacks will only make matters worse. Listen to this woman:
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
I would put some nuance on that - the UK and Israel are partners: they buy and sell a fairly limited, but usually pretty specialist military equipment, to each other, they have an intelligence relationship, and they have a military training relationship. I would not say the relationship is emotionally close (not in the way that the US relationship is) you could say the UK and Israel are allies, but not close friends.
My feeling about the political influence the UK has on Israel is pretty limited compared to the US - and I think there's an important condition on the way that influence can be used: the only people Israel listens to are people who support it. It will, to an extent, listen to it's friends giving it candid, private advice - but it doesn't listen to people who aren't it's friends, and it doesn't listen to people who publicly criticise it.
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
You're not reading my words precisely enough. There are lots of people who think that one set of killers are crueller than the other. The nature of some of the deaths seems to lend credence to that view, as does the fact that some of the Hamas killers filmed what was going on. I'm questioning that, condemning both sides for their actions.
Once you say that Israel has the right to defend itself you are relinquishing any right to criticise what they do. After all, they have the right to defend themselves, don't they? Who are we to try and second guess what that might entail?
What about Palestinian rights to resist occupation and displacement? Well, I'm in favour of that. I'd hope you would be too. But that doesn't give anyone crate Blanche to murder, to engage in suicide bombings, or whatever.
Opposing the actions of the Israeli military does not mean supporting the actions of Hamas. Opposing the British army in Northern Ireland did not mean supporting the IRA. Get the idea?
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
What the Standard is saying ( now Ive read todays edition) is that their is not enough support for British Jews at this difficult time.
ES has always been on the right. But its not the hard right like the Home Secretary. More the socially liberal ( as they see themselves) economically conservative right.
BTW Ive seen a lot of the missing poster in West End today. I don't have a problem with them. Thought they were clever bit of street politics.
So Id say ES is part of centre politics. I wouldn't think what ES is saying is that out of line with what Starmer thinks. And what he is imposing on his MPs
Basically ES is saying the left is anti semitic. And the bastions of tolerant pro immigration multicultural London is the centre ground.
Leaves out the fact that on the demo Id say most people were not full on political activists. But Londoners with a large group from the community made up of people from a middle east background who identify with Palestinian cause.
But hey blame the left for egging them on. Seems the ES was upset that a demo next day to support Israel got a poor turnout. That people arent putting Israel flags in windows. It could be that a lot of Londoners do not follow the I Stand by Israel line- But that cuts no ice with this kind of view.
Here is ES view from its Executive Editor
Sound of silence on attacks is disturbing
It is inconceivable that the reaction to the attacks on Israeli families by Hamas would have been replicated for any other community
www.standard.co.uk
At fault are those who went on last Saturdays well attended demo:
And he singles out these people in particular. These are the people who read books and call Israel a Settler Colonial state that practices Apartheid. Rather then Standing By Israel.
I take this more seriously than attacks by the Daily Mail. There has been a drip drip level of accusations against those who "Stand" for Palestinian rights. This along with Starmer stopping MPs from actively supporting Palestinians rights is starting imo to create an atmosphere that is becoming a form of McCarthyism. If not that then excluding a section of the citizens of this country from legitimate political discourse.
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