Grenfell Tower fire in North Kensington - news and discussion

[Plumdaff]

Yes. Hundreds of suddenly homeless, distraught, penniless people would be impossible for even the best council to deal with, and this is a terrible council. They will definitely not be able to immediately rehouse people - they have nowhere to put them. Other councils will have to step in but that means displacing the residents.

There was an official from Hammersmith on the telly earlier (I know, shit council, but not RBKC) saying that several other neighbouring NW London councils had already offered help - with the catch that there would need to be financial arrangements (but this is where the government could step in if they gave a fuck) - but hadn't heard anything back from K&C. Fucking useless.

 

[8den]

Map reveals shocking number of empty homes across London

There are over a 1,000 empty homes in the borough.

 

[brogdale]

There's an interesting Twitter thread by Newsnight's policy editor about the cladding issue:

And Apps made quite clear who he thought responsible for not implementing the Lakanal coroners recommendations; Barwell.

 

[DaveCinzano]

How does that work? How to be sure the ones started by individuals will end up being spent on the right stuff? I guess they have complete control of perhaps hundreds of thousands.

It's a fair point. One can make rudimentary checks of the appeal starter, and several began with Q&As where they explained who they were, where they were, their connection to the area, groups which could vouch for them in some way. Perhaps the biggest check is that this is being conducted very much in public.

 

[ferrelhadley]

 

[2hats]

On C4 News earlier, a fire brigade rep was asked whether a helicopter could have dropped water on the roof. He made the point that a helicopter would only fan the flames.

Lot's of reasons for not firefighting tall buildings from aircraft. Visibility, strong down and up drafts, targeting seat of fire, structural damage from tons of water suddenly hitting the building, risk of knocking people off the building or injuring them in the process, fanning of flames, overall rate of delivery of water. A lot of outdoor airborne fire fighting in landscapes is about control and building fire breaks/retardant zones rather than necessarily attacking the fire directly itself.

 

[Lurdan]

Justice for Grenfell Tower

“This Government, and many before it, have neglected council housing, and disregarded its tenants as if they were second class. Nationally and locally, politicians have subjected public housing to decades of systematic disinvestment – leaving properties in a state of disrepair, and open to privatisation. Regeneration, when it has come, has been for the benefit of developers and buy-to-let landlords, who profit from luxury flats built in place of affordable homes. Across London, regeneration has meant evictions, poor quality building work, and has left tenants with little influence over the future of their estates.

“The chronic underinvestment in council housing and contempt for tenants must stop. It is an outrage that in 21st Britain, authorities cannot be trusted to provide safe housing, and that people in council properties cannot put children safely to bed at night.

I spent the day watching the news about this fire in utter horror. This evening I went to a 'meet the contractors' meeting about major works to the block I live in. Where I learned that, after undertaking some remedial safety works and commissioning a structural survey, the local ALMO has decided to put out a contract which essentially puts the onus on the chosen contractor to determine the scope of what works are necessary. Jesus fucking wept.

As a political response to what's happened I don't think this piece is at all adequate. (Even just taking things in terms of where we actually are today as opposed to where we might prefer to be). Underinvestment, the systematic attack on social housing, regeneration as an opportunity for corruption and 'aspirational' enrichment are all very real things, but the problems exposed by this fire aren't limited to them. Just as much of an issue are the various 'creative' attempts - some of them 'well meaning' - to address the problems they have caused. The consequences of arms length property management and cyclical administrative 'reorganization', in terms of the loss of basic knowledge about the buildings being managed, and the loss of a functional relationship with the hierarchies of different categories of tenants. The 'light touch' management of everything from major works contracts to fire regulation. In short virtually all fundamental aspects of how social housing is actually managed today. If that isn't also addressed then simply reversing the decline in investment in social housing, and treating tenants as 'first' rather than 'second' class ('first class' what ? clients ? 'stakeholders' ? mugs ?), won't make the level of catastrophic failure we've seen today any less likely.

 

[scifisam]

It's a fair point. One can make rudimentary checks of the appeal starter, and several began with Q&As where they explained who they were, where they were, their connection to the area, groups which could vouch for them in some way. Perhaps the biggest check is that this is being conducted very much in public.

I'm not donating until I see an appeal where I know the money will be going to the residents. I don't just mean the risk that some of those fundraisers might be fake, because odds are good that they're not, I mean that the residents will actually be allowed to have the money, and it won't go into a general charity pot or towards rebuilding or anything else. Only the residents. Then I definitely will donate.

 

[Plumdaff]

I'm not donating until I see an appeal where I know the money will be going to the residents. I don't just mean the risk that some of those fundraisers might be fake, because odds are good that they're not, I mean that the residents will actually be allowed to have the money, and it won't go into a general charity pot or towards rebuilding or anything else. Only the residents. Then I definitely will donate.

I also think waiting to donate is useful because there's an amazing response at the moment but people will need support for weeks and months to come.

 

[YouSir]

I also think waiting to donate is useful because there's an amazing response at the moment but people will need support for weeks and months to come.

And years, possibly, depending on how optimistic you want to be about any right to return after rebuilding.

 

[DaveCinzano]

He heckled the RB Kensington & Chelsea council leader Nick Paget-Brown later as well:

...Piers Thompson, a local campaigner, vented his fury at the Kensington and Chelsea council leader, Nicholas Paget-Brown, who arrived for an on-camera interview with the BBC in the shadow of the charred remains of the tower. He shouted: “Do you have blood on your hands, Paget-Brown?” The council leader did not respond.

Thompson said “Their social housing has been a catastrophe waiting to happen. Everyone here has lost someone. We want to see some justice for the victims.

“These guys [gesturing to the councillor] stand around with hubris and arrogance. They’ve built something which is more of a firetrap than it ever was before. It used to be a beautiful concrete building.”

Thompson said the council’s tenant management organisation was “not fit to run a bath”.

His wife, Tanya Thompson, who campaigns with her husband, said: “The breathtaking arrogance of the council – the refurbishment was appalling...”​

Locals’ anger and frustration spills out after Grenfell Tower fire

 

[sheothebudworths]

I think updating the look of the building is of benefit to everyone in the area, especially the residents. If you're trying to get planning permission you reach out to people likely to complain by telling them it will improve the area.

I think that's all bollocks if you're a resident, tbh.
I was brought up on a council estate in central London that had a huge facelift, with some internal work but mostly lots of external work and years of disruption, with little attention paid to residents following consultation.
'Improving the area' essentially meant packing it full of shops, drawing people in. It was a shithole before and it's not now but it's not better for the people who LIVE there either - defo even more expensive - just prettier for other people to visit. They did install a better central heating system and new kitchens after 40 odd years but honestly, it wasn't about doing the residents any favours.

From the Indy article above it seemed that the refurbishment was about asthetics for neighbouring private blocks and not about what the Grenfell residents wanted or were raising concerns about for years

This is what you have to listen to - what the people who live there decide that they need.

 

[scifisam]

K&C seem to have had little to no involvement in the relief efforts, if that's the right term. And look at this statement:

The borough of Kensington and Chelsea did not comment on claims its emergency response had been lacking. It said it had already “housed 44 families on commercial hotels” and would be working through the night to house people either in the Westway sports centre, where emergency accommodation for 300 people has been established, or in other hotels.

From here Locals’ anger and frustration spills out after Grenfell Tower fire Originally saw it on the mirror website but can't find it anywhere but here right now.

Well done. 44 families. Out of hundreds. In hotels. Or probably "hotels."

I wonder if there could be a campaign for compulsory purchase of some of the long-term empty homes, paid for out of the national purse because otherwise the council will go bankrupt and the council are not the only ones who've caused the problems with housing. I know people will be calling for council heads to roll and some probably should but the buck doesn't stop there.

 

[YouSir]

K&C seem to have had little to no involvement in the relief efforts, if that's the right term. And look at this statement:

The borough of Kensington and Chelsea did not comment on claims its emergency response had been lacking. It said it had already “housed 44 families on commercial hotels” and would be working through the night to house people either in the Westway sports centre, where emergency accommodation for 300 people has been established, or in other hotels.

From here Locals’ anger and frustration spills out after Grenfell Tower fire Originally saw it on the mirror website but can't find it anywhere but here right now.

Well done. 44 families. Out of hundreds. In hotels. Or probably "hotels."

I wonder if there could be a campaign for compulsory purchase of some of the long-term empty homes, paid for out of the national purse because otherwise the council will go bankrupt and the council are not the only ones who've caused the problems with housing. I know people will be calling for council heads to roll and some probably should but the buck doesn't stop there.

What sort of housing stock is empty there? Reckon the owners would be in a position to block any movements towards compulsory purchase orders plus the council would probably look to sell whatever they could get on anyway. More viable in other boroughs maybe, if the money was there, hard to see that happening either though. I think it really needs a major and aggressive shift in London housing policy in general, a freeze on major private developments, legal action against any company that's failed to provide required social housing, fixed (and realistic) levels for affordable housing and a complete purge of (some) council's planning departments - corrupt as they are. Hard to see any of that happening quickly enough to support the people who're going to be struggling from today though.

Also 'hotels' is right, it's going to be shit for everyone, especially for families, who get pushed into the sort of accommodation that's likely to be offered. If the donation levels from the public stay high that's probably a better hope for some than waiting on any help from the government, hopefully a long term fund will appear soon. People will need something whatever else can be done to bring real change.

 

[xenon]

Just fucking sickening. The more you read about this, The angrier you get.

 

[Wilf]

Apologies if already posted but here's documentation on what the residents were saying earlier, that the cladding was partly chosen

so that the council could ensure the "living conditions of those living near the development" were "suitably protected".

Obscenity upon obscenity.
Grenfell Tower was covered in material to make it look better. That’s being blamed for multiple deaths

 

[Mab]

Mind-numbing; an absolute massive tragedy. The shock many people are in including children must be massive. I am so sorry for you all.
Love from Canada

 

[5t3IIa]

Today prog just saying it's still smoking and emergency services reached 'the top floor'. Not mentioned the roof Someone earlier in the thread said something about bodies on the roof, and Today saying they 'know' death toll is going to rise.

 

[Dogsauce]

There's an interesting Twitter thread by Newsnight's policy editor about the cladding issue:

Worth noting on that video that the fire appears to be contained laterally and doesn't noticeably bridge to the building interior. That's the fire barriers working. They didn't at Grenfall, something went very seriously wrong.

(Note that the smoke appears to rise almost vertically to begin with, so it may not have been windy - not the case in London where there were moderate winds which may have pushed flames along the building, and as mentioned before due to the warm weather it's likely windows were open, with curtains etc.)

 

[phillm]

two absolute red lines going forward have to be a full public enquiry, and the rehousing of all survivors in the immediate vicinity for as long as they wish to live there.

There are literally thousands of empty new build apartments all over London in huge numbers (I have read something like 60,000) waiting to be bought most probably by overseas investors as a place to 'stash their cash' . So there is no shortage of housing. It won't happen of course , but the arguement can be made - that there is crippling , acute need by suffering shell shocked survivors , an outpouring of anger and empathy for their plight and a humanly simple solution to their immediate needs. The fault lines of the venality and greed of Capital have never been so brutally and nakedly exposed in 21st century Britain as they are today - and a tsunami of anger is starting to hit this goverment and all past ones whose grubby , greedy fingerprints are all over this obscene crime scene.

 

[BigTom]

What sort of housing stock is empty there? Reckon the owners would be in a position to block any movements towards compulsory purchase orders plus the council would probably look to sell whatever they could get on anyway. More viable in other boroughs maybe, if the money was there, hard to see that happening either though. I think it really needs a major and aggressive shift in London housing policy in general, a freeze on major private developments, legal action against any company that's failed to provide required social housing, fixed (and realistic) levels for affordable housing and a complete purge of (some) council's planning departments - corrupt as they are. Hard to see any of that happening quickly enough to support the people who're going to be struggling from today though.

Also 'hotels' is right, it's going to be shit for everyone, especially for families, who get pushed into the sort of accommodation that's likely to be offered. If the donation levels from the public stay high that's probably a better hope for some than waiting on any help from the government, hopefully a long term fund will appear soon. People will need something whatever else can be done to bring real change.

Squatting residential properties is illegal now but if there were ever a situation where squatters would have public support it would be the residents here.

 

[Dandred]

 

[Steel Icarus]

The homeless families should be put in five star hotels and driven wherever they want by limos paid for by the government.

 

[Badgers]

 

[Pickman's model]

The homeless families should be put in five star hotels and driven wherever they want by limos paid for by the government. carried in sedan chairs by government ministers of their choice

C4U

 

[existentialist]

View attachment 109379

Who is this crass oaf?

 

[Pickman's model]

Who is this crass oaf?

You're very restrained today

 

[brogdale]

View attachment 109379

The actual state of this; FFS.

 

[Pickman's model]

K&C seem to have had little to no involvement in the relief efforts, if that's the right term. And look at this statement:

The borough of Kensington and Chelsea did not comment on claims its emergency response had been lacking. It said it had already “housed 44 families on commercial hotels” and would be working through the night to house people either in the Westway sports centre, where emergency accommodation for 300 people has been established, or in other hotels.

From here Locals’ anger and frustration spills out after Grenfell Tower fire Originally saw it on the mirror website but can't find it anywhere but here right now.

Well done. 44 families. Out of hundreds. In hotels. Or probably "hotels."

I wonder if there could be a campaign for compulsory purchase of some of the long-term empty homes, paid for out of the national purse because otherwise the council will go bankrupt and the council are not the only ones who've caused the problems with housing. I know people will be calling for council heads to roll and some probably should but the buck doesn't stop there.

May not be 44 families out of hundreds, but 44 families out of fewer than a hundred

 

[Badgers]

The actual state of this; FFS.