Feminism- experiences of man-whispering and the refusal to do so...

[Steel Icarus]

You silly penis.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

I won't reply to him again. Promise.

This

 

[Manter]

In the past it's been explained on urban that a white person can marry a black woman and still be racist.
I guess the same arguement can be used against you here.

You really are incredible. Every time I try and give you a chance you show why that is completely pointless

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

In the past it's been explained on urban that a white person can marry a black woman and still be racist.
I guess the same arguement can be used against you here.

Life skills tip - a shovel is not the best way out of a hole.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Maybe not the exact same thing, but my father was both emotionally and physically abusive towards my mother, and I think its lasting effects on her have been present in how she has dealt with both myself and my brother, something which didn't become apparent to me, at least, until I 'grew up .' What I mean is her ways of treating situations in which a younger me may have been in need of telling straight about my behaviour (and I took her for granted for many years) but in a way so as to not elicit a reaction which, in the past, might have meant a punch or several. She learned it to survive, at great cost to her own internal well-being.

I really want to reply to this so am quoting as a reminder to myself. This dynamic has had a major influence on me from within my own family .

 

[Edie]

Maybe not the exact same thing, but my father was both emotionally and physically abusive towards my mother, and I think its lasting effects on her have been present in how she has dealt with both myself and my brother, something which didn't become apparent to me, at least, until I 'grew up .' What I mean is her ways of treating situations in which a younger me may have been in need of telling straight about my behaviour (and I took her for granted for many years) but in a way so as to not elicit a reaction which, in the past, might have meant a punch or several. She learned it to survive, at great cost to her own internal well-being.

Certain this is a very sensitive subject but can you give an example, do you mean avoiding confrontation? and what kind of effect did that have on you? If you don’t want to answer I understand xx (it’s just there’s been a fair bit of violence from my ex towards me and my eldest son and one of the many many criticisms social services made about me in the child protection report was around similar themes).

I’ve not heard it called man whispering before but I’m a fucking world class expert at not getting into fights with a drunk man

 

[Edie]

I have found that people who kick off unless everything is sugar coated for them are always the people who never compromise or sugar coat anything themselves. Tolerate my intolerance, as it were.

Yes!!!!! Why is that?!

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Yes!!!!! Why is that?!

Because twats, when you boil it down to the basics.

 

[TopCat]

It can be akin to the "boiled frog syndrome". I once found I was managing another far too much when I got pissed and stopped any effort. Cue rage and violence. Scared the crap out of me.

 

[Sweet FA]

it's a minority that's to blame

I honestly think this is the fundamental flaw in your 'thinking'.

How exactly? Give me some pointers on how I do my part.

On this thread, really?

 

[TopCat]

Yes!!!!! Why is that?!

They think they are always right.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

They think they are always right.

Not as much or as thoroughly or as passionately as they believe that you are wrong.

Or desperately want you to be.

 

[Idaho]

'People'

If gender roles are learnt and not innate, as is generally agreed by saner "people", then "people" is the correct term. We can all learn and adhere to these roles.

Unless you are hinting at something altogether different?

 

[Pickman's model]

Not as much or as thoroughly or as passionately as they believe that you are wrong.

Or desperately want you to be.

Or they want you to think you are

 

[Treacle Toes]

Rutita1 did either you or spanglechick come up with "man-whispering" as a name for the behaviour?

I copied it from the other thread after spanglechick used it to describe a dynamic I recognised and have experience of hence me re-using it here.

 

[JuanTwoThree]

I thought the point here was not that this is some sort of thing that only women always do with only all men (of course not) but the specific social context of it existing between women and men and how it has come to be default and often transparent behaviour in many areas, how that expectation is passed on, how it affects personal relationships, that sort of thing. I mean that sounds like a reasonable area to talk about.

This. It strikes me that this is something that few men and most women have to do to deal with most men and few women. So discussion about the exceptions is not the point.

 

[Spymaster]

Or they want you to think you are

Or they want you to think they think you are.

 

[Pickman's model]

Or they want you to think they think you are.

i had in mind gaslighting, i have no idea what you have in mind but suspect you're posting from wetherspoon's marvellous metropolitan bar

happy birthday!

 

[Treacle Toes]

Maybe not the exact same thing, but my father was both emotionally and physically abusive towards my mother, and I think its lasting effects on her have been present in how she has dealt with both myself and my brother, something which didn't become apparent to me, at least, until I 'grew up .' What I mean is her ways of treating situations in which a younger me may have been in need of telling straight about my behaviour (and I took her for granted for many years) but in a way so as to not elicit a reaction which, in the past, might have meant a punch or several. She learned it to survive, at great cost to her own internal well-being.

I recognise this. My mother's first marriage ended because of emotional and sometimes physical abuse. My mum, so depressed and disturbed by the treatment that she described out of body experiences, where she hovered just above herself looking down watching everything from above, making sure she didn't put a foot wrong' She also used walk with her head down when in the street as that was easier than getting accused of looking at x, y, or z bloke who she must have been having an affair with etc.

Anyway...growing up, it was near on impossible to imagine my mother had suffered domestic abuse. I came along 4 years after she'd left her first husband, the mum I grew up to know was confident, fierce, capable, took no shit whatsoever from men in general and if the truth be told could be really scary as she had a short fuse and prone to violent outbursts. If you were close enough you would absolutely get a beating. However, I can't ever remember her beating my brothers. Myself and my sister, yes...nt one memory of my brother's copping it though.

One of my brothers is really Alpha in the aggressive way they can be; he lacks patience and charm so he just bulldozers and intimidates to get his own way, not exclusively with, but especially with women. I used to get so pissed off with my mum because it seemed she was just spoiling him and letting him get away with shit he needed to be pulled up on. I came to realise it was fear that stopped her. Especially as he got older, bigger, unpredictable. She never ever forgot the 'fear' her first marriage instilled in her where she learnt to agree, appease, flinch, do or say anything to manage and contain the threat.

 

[joustmaster]

JFC does this have to happen every single fucking time here? Yes it's a thing some men have to do with some women, no it's not a thing women have to do with all men, it's a bigger deal because power imbalance, greater incidence of male violence towards women than vice versa meaning more universal fear, patriarchy and FOR THE BILLIONTH FUCKNG TIME DON'T TAKE IT PERSONALLY.

P.s. if you're taking it personally, have a think about that.

For fucks sake.

Thanks. This helped a lot. I was struggling to understand.

It's the exactly same thing that men deal with, but men don't have the risk associated with it that women do.

Cheers!

 

[Manter]

Thanks. This helped a lot. I was struggling to understand.

It's the exactly same thing that men deal with, but men don't have the risk associated with it that women do.

Cheers!

I genuinely think women do it more. It’s not just because we don’t want to get battered, it’s also because we are supposed to be more social, nurturing etc, so from a very young age we are taught to watch and second guess and soothe and charm and so on. It is our ‘role’ in society. Many kick against it, NAMNAW etc but it’s what I observe around my daily life

Obviously I’ve not been brought up and lived as a both a boy/man and girl/woman, so this is observed

 

[seventh bullet]

I recognise this. My mother's first marriage ended because of emotional and sometimes physical abuse. My mum, so depressed and disturbed by the treatment that she described out of body experiences, where she hovered just above herself looking down watching everything from above, making sure she didn't put a foot wrong' She also used walk with her head down when in the street as that was easier than getting accused of looking at x, y, or z bloke who she must have been having an affair with etc.

Anyway...growing up, it was near on impossible to imagine my mother had suffered domestic abuse. I came along 4 years after she'd left her first husband, the mum I grew up to know was confident, fierce, capable, took no shit whatsoever from men in general and if the truth be told could be really scary as she had a short fuse and prone to violent outbursts. If you were close enough you would absolutely get a beating. However, I can't ever remember her beating my brothers. Myself and my sister, yes...nt one memory of my brother's copping it though.

One of my brothers is really Alpha in the aggressive way they can be; he lacks patience and charm so he just bulldozers and intimidates to get his own way, not exclusively with, but especially with women. I used to get so pissed off with my mum because it seemed she was just spoiling him and letting him get away with shit he needed to be pulled up on. I came to realise it was fear that stopped her. Especially as he got older and bigger, unpredictable. She never ever forgot the 'fear' her first marriage instilled in her where she learnt to agree, appease, flinch, do or say anything to manage and contain the threat.

Thanks for posting. Yep, it's what I was meaning earlier. I hated my dad for what he did but didn't realise how it had affected her when it came to me and my brother until I was older and dare I say mature, gaining some self-awareness. We could be right pieces of shit. I'll reply more fully to you and Edie later on. Need to rest after work.

 

[joustmaster]

I genuinely think women do it more. It’s not just because we don’t want to get battered, it’s also because we are supposed to be more social, nurturing etc, so from a very young age we are taught to watch and second guess and soothe and charm and so on. It is our ‘role’ in society. Many kick against it, NAMNAW etc but it’s what I observe around my daily life

Obviously I’ve not been brought up and lived as a both a boy/man and girl/woman, so this is observed

Cool.
I read through more pages after replying and tried to filter out the angry shouting.
I shouldn't say "exactly" in my above post. As I can now see a lot of times it would be needed to deal with sexism too.

Its been hard trying to understand why it had the word man in it and what the differences might be.
Obviously if loads of people are saying it's a thing and I don't understand what they're talking about, it's a concern.

So thanks to the people who have shared personal stuff to help.

 

[Santino]

If gender roles are learnt and not innate, as is generally agreed by saner "people", then "people" is the correct term. We can all learn and adhere to these roles.

Unless you are hinting at something altogether different?

In a thread specifically begun to discuss the female experience of male egoism and violence, it is more than a little disingenuous to start discussing this as a particular character trait of 'people' rather than a structural issue about men and women. You don't make any progress by pretending that gender is irrelevant.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

..... the female experience of male egoism and violence....

I think it’s important to understand that we’re talking about emotional violence here too. Not only the physical stuff, whether that’s implied or really happens, but also the raised voice the nasty slurs the grim black scowls the foul temper the sullen sulking and petulant withdrawal of decency the bullish stubborn insistence that his mood states are deferred to, all of which compel us to change course, to change our own emotional status in order to tend to his.

It is walking on eggshells, but it’s more than that. It’s the necessity not only to make sure he doesn’t get even more pissed off, and also to actively work towards bringing him back to something approaching decency. We do that by staying out of his way, but also by trying to woo him and cajole him, by word or deed, with our behaviour and little gifts. That’s the whispering part for me: the hard cautious incremental work of trying to charm him back to a state of mind that’s not scary and threatening.

 

[Cloo]

It’s not really ‘man whispering’ but I’ve only come to realise in the last few years that, while my mum is great on some many levels, she was wrong about one thing she advised me. She was always ‘Oh, you and I are the peacemakers’ and that you had to compromise ‘for an easier life’ etc. I didn’t grow up seeing my parents argue, I think in large part because mum tended to keep the peace.

I’m married to someone from a family where everyone responded to things by yelling more than everyone else, and it’s taken me a long time, but I’ve learned to stand my ground when I am right (and I do give way if I’m not) and even if the outcome has been uncomfortable sometimes, I am always glad that I did it. And more often the outcome has been extremely positive, rather than trying to compromise or give way. I just don’t want to teach my kids that you give way to the angry, shouty person – and sometimes you might turn out to have misread the situation and be wrong, and so be it, you learn from it. But I think it’s improved my other half’s anger management also (on top of his own efforts, I hasten to add)

 

[polly]

It's also things like turning a man down in a way that doesn't invite violence. I learned this when I was 16 and at a club. Some bloke tried to chat me up, I politely but unsmilingly turned him down. He set my clothes on fire when my back was turned, in front of all his friends who did nothing to stop him. For example. I only remembered this after reading this thread - seemed pretty run of the mill at the time.

It is not the same thing as tiptoeing around your nearest and dearest. Not not not not not.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

It's also things like turning a man down in a way that doesn't invite violence. I learned this when I was 16 and at a club. Some bloke tried to chat me up, I politely but unsmilingly turned him down. He set my clothes on fire when my back was turned, in front of all his friends who did nothing to stop him. For example. I only remembered this after reading this thread - seemed pretty run of the mill at the time.

Bloody hell.

 

[weepiper]

Jesus polly

 

[polly]

It was ok - I was furious af, put the fire out quickly and chased him and his friends out of the club, shrieking like a banshee, followed by some bouncers But even though it was a bit of a shock, it just seemed to be pretty standard behaviour. Which is the point really - on the whole I've been very lucky in my transactions with men: never been raped, rarely been sexually assaulted, got a good partner, turned invisible before dick pics and online sexual harassment became a thing. But I'd largely forgotten about being set alight because it was just one nasty event among so, so many.

It really boils my piss to see men equating this constant state of vigilance towards men's feelings, especially as very young women or even girls (actually roughly 12-16 is when you get the most unwanted male attention ime), with the negotiating that we all do (some to a greater extent than others, granted) in our relationships. It's not just the added risk of physical harm. It's that it is fucking constant, from everywhere, all the time, from the outwardly benign to the obviously threatening. It's even the fact that men feel entitled to your time when you're trying to get somewhere - when I was good mates with someone blonde and big breasted who liked to dress skimpily, it would take us forever to get from A to B, because we'd have to give numerous men the fucking time of day. And we would have to 'man whisper', because a straight up 'go away' would lead to such drama that it would take up even more of your time.

Tbh all these feminism threads just make me too angry and depressed to deal, and I take my hat off to all you women and men making brilliant and eloquent posts in the face of whataboutery, distraction techniques and just crap from posters who should know - and do - better.