Supine
Newt Member
And men and women do it.
Feminism- experiences of man-whispering and the refusal to do so...
- Thread starter Treacle Toes
- Start date
And men and women do it.
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
Not really what I said, but ok then.
Treacle Toes
Time
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
Except that it's not.
Rebelda
Nearly as bad as Badgers
JFC does this have to happen every single fucking time here? Yes it's a thing some men have to do with some women, no it's not a thing women have to do with all men, it's a bigger deal because power imbalance, greater incidence of male violence towards women than vice versa meaning more universal fear, patriarchy and FOR THE BILLIONTH FUCKNG TIME DON'T TAKE IT PERSONALLY.
P.s. if you're taking it personally, have a think about that.
For fucks sake.
P.s. if you're taking it personally, have a think about that.
For fucks sake.
Athos
Well-Known Member
A bit of context, please. Women are attacked, verbally and physically (sometimes to death) every week for saying 'the wrong thing' (be it refusing sexual advances, asserting their rights, nagging etc.). And women, as a group, have learned a way to mitigate that risk - 'man-whispering.' Yes, some men might have to pussyfoot around their wives now and again, if they want a quiet life, but it's hardly equivalent.
ETA: beaten the point by Rebelda.
ETA: beaten the point by Rebelda.
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
To be fair though, that wasnt the way the original post presented the concept. It was presented as a way of not upsetting someone's fragility or hurting their ego. The silly name also diminishes the seriousness of the issue
Steel Icarus
we move
Hypothetical question - kind of hypothetical anyway - how would a man give an opinion based on personal and lived experience on this topic without it coming across as whataboutery?
Fuck off, shut up , and actually accept you might be wrong about something.
Steel Icarus
we move
Helpful.
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
Read my post again you numpty
Steel Icarus
we move
There's a difference between the personal and the "wider" stuff though, surely? Or in different circles, i.e. in the workplace and at home?
Treacle Toes
Time
So... I was at my older friend's house on Friday putting up some curtains for her. I got the ladder out and didn't hesitate to climb up it and get on with it...she laughed to herself and said 'Oh Ruti, you're such a tomboy!' I asked her why, she said 'because you can do all the things a man can, I bet your boyfriend loves you for that.' Now she is an older woman and of course I know why for her there were much more defined lines between gender roles and expectations.I talked to her about what it was like growing up, how my mum was a 'doer' too. How I come from a long line of women who just get on with it and who have been single mothers for one reason or another at different points in their lives and as a result had to get on with things...it got me thinking about this stuff again though.
More than once in my life in my intimate relationships with men the fact that I am very 'handy' when it comes to DIY and stuff that was traditionally seen as 'man's work' has been a bone of contention or concern for my partners. I remember one of them telling me straight 'You don't need me for anything, you can do it all, there's no space for me'...it was a really sad yet revealing moment...it lead us on to talk about identity and gender roles and what our expectations were in terms of our relationship... It also lead me to understand something that I didn't before about how I relate to some men and how they relate to me... I don't yield and demure myself, I don't make myself vulnerable, scared and needy... and some need me to.
More than once in my life in my intimate relationships with men the fact that I am very 'handy' when it comes to DIY and stuff that was traditionally seen as 'man's work' has been a bone of contention or concern for my partners. I remember one of them telling me straight 'You don't need me for anything, you can do it all, there's no space for me'...it was a really sad yet revealing moment...it lead us on to talk about identity and gender roles and what our expectations were in terms of our relationship... It also lead me to understand something that I didn't before about how I relate to some men and how they relate to me... I don't yield and demure myself, I don't make myself vulnerable, scared and needy... and some need me to.
You're upset because women have been insufficiently careful around your ego, IN A THREAD ABOUT THAT TOPIC.
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
Treacle Toes
Time
It's really annoying that a man has to come along and explain this to you for you to concede even an inch. Us women saying it isn't enough....and no, the name doesn't diminish the seriousness of it. You not liking it is all there is going on here.
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
Ok then
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Yeh. I know. Outside the urban bubble mw seems a different thing from inside the urban bubble.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
If you have to be dishonest with her perhaps your relationship is built on sand
Rebelda
Nearly as bad as Badgers
It's the same thing. One end of the scale is related to the other.
Baronage-Phase
Well-Known Member
I am much more careful in the way I speak to certain men I have to deal with. I'm very aware that they are capable of making my life much more difficult. This has only happened me since I realised that saying things straight out earned me a whole lot of grief and left me feeling very vulnerable.
I'm not talking about within a relationship although I have had to hold back massively at times and say nothing rather than say the truth.. just to maintain someone else's peace... but I am talking very much about my workplace.
I was reared to say what I believed in and not be afraid to speak up for myself. Unfortunately the world wasnt all on the same page. And I have run into the most horrendous problems in work when pointing out things that were really not ok. It didn't matter how I phrased it I was unable to be subtle enough for men in charge. It took another man saying it for them to listen.
I have learned that I have to speak in a different way to men than to women in the workplace. I can come right out with stuff to women but I have to tippy toe round the men. Not all of them but enough to make me careful all the time.
Its shit. Cos I know men just say things straight out between themselves and dont give a second thought.
I think it has to do with the possibility that some men have a male ego that sees a negative comment made by a woman as a personal criticism of them... instead of just an observation.
It's not in every line of work. But it does exist.
I'm not talking about within a relationship although I have had to hold back massively at times and say nothing rather than say the truth.. just to maintain someone else's peace... but I am talking very much about my workplace.
I was reared to say what I believed in and not be afraid to speak up for myself. Unfortunately the world wasnt all on the same page. And I have run into the most horrendous problems in work when pointing out things that were really not ok. It didn't matter how I phrased it I was unable to be subtle enough for men in charge. It took another man saying it for them to listen.
I have learned that I have to speak in a different way to men than to women in the workplace. I can come right out with stuff to women but I have to tippy toe round the men. Not all of them but enough to make me careful all the time.
Its shit. Cos I know men just say things straight out between themselves and dont give a second thought.
I think it has to do with the possibility that some men have a male ego that sees a negative comment made by a woman as a personal criticism of them... instead of just an observation.
It's not in every line of work. But it does exist.
Manter
Lunch Mob
My boyfriends have never had an issue with it, but their friends/social circle/families have. Do
SheilaNaGig
Break requested
Why did you just post up the definition from the pop-culture book then, without any kind of comment?
What point were you intending or hoping to make with that post?
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
Fair enough
Treacle Toes
Time
My boyfriends have never had an issue with it, but their friends/social circle/families have. Do
Well it certainly hasn't been an issue with all of them, just two that I remember and them having a problem with it and how it played out in our relationship really helped me to understand that whilst 'being me' and just getting on with things feels like the most natural thing for others it wasn't...With other people, well yeah there have been incidents of it too.
SheilaNaGig
Break requested
How about this: if you have personal lived experience of what it feels like as a man to have to be cautious or even fearful in conversation with your female partner, use that lived experience and then add in the potential for violence.
And ffs it is possible to say “Oh yeah, I think I know what you’re talking about here, it sounds like something I’m familiar with, I’d be interested to know in what ways it’s similar or different to what I’m experiencing, and whether any insight can be gained by making the comparison” etc...
Rather than “Well it happens to me so what about me. It happens to men too so why aren’t we talking about that. It happens to men so it isn’t especially significant for women”.
ETA Rebelda was more succinct than I.
Manter
Lunch Mob
I was being flippant, but slightly less flippantly, even if you manage to meet someone who has kicked over some of the worst bits of the patriarchy, you are still living in a world sodden with it, so you get all that negative judgement
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