Feminism- experiences of man-whispering and the refusal to do so...
- Thread starter Treacle Toes
- Start date
SheilaNaGig
Break requested
Or are you talking about .... Actually, what *are* you talking about? What do you mean by toxic femininity? Is it something specific and definitive in your opinion, or is it just a defensive response to this discussion?
Is it another version of "what about the menz?" Or what is it?
Is it another version of "what about the menz?" Or what is it?
Clair De Lune
Apocalypse cocktails
I can understand how the term toxic masculinity would wind people up, because it does sound like it's saying all men are toxic but not us fair maidens oh no, we're lovely, coated in sprinkles and rainbows. When we know that some women can be abusive, cruel and extremely toxic. But from what I understand, the term toxic masculinity refers to the ways in which men are bullied by our society into a very narrow definition of manhood. How that bullying and the results, hurts men greatly and that some of those men go on to hurt women, plenty hurt each other and some hurt themselves.
I don't ever use that term when talking to young men, yet we still manage to have conversations about the difficulties of growing up as a boy with all of the emotions, expectations, pressures. These young men often already realise how they are being done over, but don't tend to notice till later, how their sisters are too. ( and this is true vice versa- girls see their brothers being prized over them in certain ways, treated differently, but not how they are being hurt by their training/bullying)
I don't ever use that term when talking to young men, yet we still manage to have conversations about the difficulties of growing up as a boy with all of the emotions, expectations, pressures. These young men often already realise how they are being done over, but don't tend to notice till later, how their sisters are too. ( and this is true vice versa- girls see their brothers being prized over them in certain ways, treated differently, but not how they are being hurt by their training/bullying)
Manter
Lunch Mob
I think you’re very tolerant. Toxic masculinity doesn’t mean all masculinity is toxic any more than heavy rain means that all rain is heavy, brown dog means all dogs are brown, wet weekend means all weekends are wet.
It’s an adjective and a noun. I think (some) men choose to misrepresent it as some sort of universal slur and barrier to social progress in order to shut the conversation down.
Clair De Lune
Apocalypse cocktails
I know. But some men will react to it as another attack and then it's not a useful term imo. It's hard to be open to learning when one feels attacked and when things feel unfair. When a boy is being bullied just as much by mum to be tough, when he sees that the bully boys at school seem to be most favoured by the girls and everyone tells them to man up I can understand them asking 'what about toxic femininity?'
We wouldn't have such a high male suicide rate if men weren't also being deeply hurt by our society
We wouldn't have such a high male suicide rate if men weren't also being deeply hurt by our society
RubyToogood
RubyTwobikes
This is rubbish. It's pure whataboutery again. It's exactly the same argument as was had on page 1, about the inability to distinguish between patriarchy being criticised and men being criticised.
*e2a p1 of another thread actually I think but anyway.
*e2a p1 of another thread actually I think but anyway.
RubyToogood
RubyTwobikes
Pls reread thread title and tell me this is not what you are doing.I know. But some men will react to it as another attack and then it's not a useful term imo. It's hard to be open to learning when one feels attacked and when things feel unfair. When a boy is being bullied just as much by mum to be tough, when he sees that the bully boys at school seem to be most favoured by the girls and everyone tells them to man up I can understand them asking 'what about toxic femininity?'
We wouldn't have such a high male suicide rate if men weren't also being deeply hurt by our society
Steel Icarus
ersatz maven
Whose inability?
RubyToogood
RubyTwobikes
Steel Icarus
ersatz maven
But you quoted CDL?
Manter
Lunch Mob
When do we stop giving ground? When do we stop moderating, stepping back, not calling stuff out, dancing round stuff so we don’t offend men? *This* is man whispering.I know. But some men will react to it as another attack and then it's not a useful term imo. It's hard to be open to learning when one feels attacked and when things feel unfair. When a boy is being bullied just as much by mum to be tough, when he sees that the bully boys at school seem to be most favoured by the girls and everyone tells them to man up I can understand them asking 'what about toxic femininity?'
We wouldn't have such a high male suicide rate if men weren't also being deeply hurt by our society
And I’m afraid I think turning all this stuff back on women is toxic
Manter
Lunch Mob
Not toxic masculinity per se, the discussion in the posts above about toxic femininity
Clair De Lune
Apocalypse cocktails
Yeah I take your point. I suppose in this instance I feel a little man whispering/ a gentler explanation can serve us all.
Treacle Toes
Time
The thing is that toxic masculinity refers to a particular kind of macho, bullying, entitled posturing that also affects men and boys themselves.
What's been suggested here is that simply having a name for it stigmatises boys so much they no longer want to be boys. I think that's bullshit.
It doesn't sound like all men are toxic at all. It doesn't sound like we are saying girls and women are fair maidens in opposition either. It also doesn't erase the very fact that women need this language as part of and to characterise the struggle against patriarchy and it's ongoing oppression of women and 'ruining' of boys/men.
I can understand that when working with young people such terminology would be the poorer choice over explaining/talking through certain behaviours in terms of why and how etc...but this conversation and thread has done that already with the men of urban reading it over and over again.
mojo pixy and anyone else who wants to can start a thread in which they talk about 'toxic femininity', explore it, share experiences etc...I would have some points to make too btw.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Fair enough, it was more of a general musing.
trashpony
Hag
This weekend I went camping with my son. We were putting up our awning and the man in the next caravan came over and asked if we needed help, I said no, we were fine and he went away.
He approached twice more and both times I was polite but I made it fairly clear I didn’t want to have a long chat.
Later we were sitting outside and he rummaged in his van and brought over a toy and gave it to my son, grabbed at my dog, and talked at me for 20 minutes. He was totally in our space, standing right next to me and my dog was under the table at my feel
I didn’t want to talk to him and I made that clear. He told me very early on though that he was an ex-Marine so I just had to sit there and hope he eventually went away which he did. After the toy, my son went back in the van and wouldn’t come outside after that because he was worried that the bloke would come back.
So thanks, random man, for ruining our evening.
He approached twice more and both times I was polite but I made it fairly clear I didn’t want to have a long chat.
Later we were sitting outside and he rummaged in his van and brought over a toy and gave it to my son, grabbed at my dog, and talked at me for 20 minutes. He was totally in our space, standing right next to me and my dog was under the table at my feel
I didn’t want to talk to him and I made that clear. He told me very early on though that he was an ex-Marine so I just had to sit there and hope he eventually went away which he did. After the toy, my son went back in the van and wouldn’t come outside after that because he was worried that the bloke would come back.
So thanks, random man, for ruining our evening.
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
No, calling out specific, actionable behaviours isn't giving ground or man whispering, it's helpful and constructive. Using phrases or words that are either mystifying or put your target audiences backs up so they refuse to engage - or, as seen here, provide a hostage to fortune in the shape of the whataboutary of toxic femininity to those who are intrinsically hostile, is just stupid politics.
Monkeygrinder's Organ
Dodgy geezer swilling vapid lager
What would you suggest as an alternative? Because I'd say those responses are coming anyway and they're not just a response to the phrase. It's not as if these debates are lacking in whataboutery until toxic masculinity is mentioned is it?
Clair De Lune
Apocalypse cocktails
I agree with all of that. I suppose I'm thinking that in real life, with the kinds of men and boys I meet and know the term would shut down conversation not open it up.
Treacle Toes
Time
Yes, and I absolutely understand that and agree with using any method that is appropriate to speak about these things where possible.
Urban is real life however and these issues are being talked about using a variety of different ways too. The fact is that some men here are choosing to focus on the bits they don't like. This terminology has been unpicked and explained repeatedly. It's still women's fault though, apparently.
I reckon toxic masculinity is a very useful and easy to understand concept - IMO a helpful way of shining light on a particular and identifiable set of behaviours. As is often the case with these things it's also sometimes used as a blanket dismissal & insult, which some people can't / choose not to see beyond. That doesn't stop it being a useful concept though.
Monkeygrinder's Organ
Dodgy geezer swilling vapid lager
I think this is a good point. I was thinking of posting something on the 'male experiences of patriarchy' thread about how powerful that desire to fit in is. When you look at the ways people were talking about being policed into line, while you obviously do get some extreme examples, a lot of it is actually quite mild, but still very effective. From one point of view we should all be able to shrug off a few negative comments but I think the point is they're enough to make it clear that you're risking being on the outside and that's definitely a bad place to be.
Manter
Lunch Mob
I think this is exactly my issue kabbes. What words can women (and men, but the reaction seems to me to be when women use them) use that everyone is OK with while calling out a set of behaviours that are intrinsic to the worst of the masculine within the patriarchy? Without writing a heavily caveated paragraph each time?
Sorry— can you just remind me of the context in which you’ve tagged me in here? I can’t remember what I said that would have prompted the response
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
Ah stop that. Get out of my head, you're in no position to judge what I do / don't understand based on the blunt way I've chosen to express a point. Feel free to talk about my words, leave 'my understanding' out of it.
Last post here because I don't have the time or mental energy.
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
Bollocks. If I wrote 'all women' do you think the offence caused would be a result of some horrific mix of individual women saying 'well that's not me' and a their alleged need to be part of some monolithic 'sisterhood', or just that I was obviously talking tripe?
Treacle Toes
Time
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