I think you’re very tolerant. Toxic masculinity doesn’t mean all masculinity is toxic any more than heavy rain means that all rain is heavy, brown dog means all dogs are brown, wet weekend means all weekends are wet.I can understand how the term toxic masculinity would wind people up, because it does sound like it's saying all men are toxic but not us fair maidens oh no, we're lovely, coated in sprinkles and rainbows. When we know that some women can be abusive, cruel and extremely toxic. But from what I understand, the term toxic masculinity refers to the ways in which men are bullied by our society into a very narrow definition of manhood. How that bullying and the results, hurts men greatly and that some of those men go on to hurt women, plenty hurt each other and some hurt themselves.
I don't ever use that term when talking to young men, yet we still manage to have conversations about the difficulties of growing up as a boy with all of the emotions, expectations, pressures. These young men often already realise how they are being done over, but don't tend to notice till later, how their sisters are too. ( and this is true vice versa- girls see their brothers being prized over them in certain ways, treated differently, but not how they are being hurt by their training/bullying)
Pls reread thread title and tell me this is not what you are doing.I know. But some men will react to it as another attack and then it's not a useful term imo. It's hard to be open to learning when one feels attacked and when things feel unfair. When a boy is being bullied just as much by mum to be tough, when he sees that the bully boys at school seem to be most favoured by the girls and everyone tells them to man up I can understand them asking 'what about toxic femininity?'
We wouldn't have such a high male suicide rate if men weren't also being deeply hurt by our society
Whose inability?This is rubbish. It's pure whataboutery again. It's exactly the same argument as was had on page 1, about the inability to distinguish between patriarchy being criticised and men being criticised.
*e2a p1 of another thread actually I think but anyway.
Mojo pixy's.Whose inability?
But you quoted CDL?Mojo pixy's.
When do we stop giving ground? When do we stop moderating, stepping back, not calling stuff out, dancing round stuff so we don’t offend men? *This* is man whispering.I know. But some men will react to it as another attack and then it's not a useful term imo. It's hard to be open to learning when one feels attacked and when things feel unfair. When a boy is being bullied just as much by mum to be tough, when he sees that the bully boys at school seem to be most favoured by the girls and everyone tells them to man up I can understand them asking 'what about toxic femininity?'
We wouldn't have such a high male suicide rate if men weren't also being deeply hurt by our society
Not toxic masculinity per se, the discussion in the posts above about toxic femininityI'm not sure that "toxic masculinity" is a concept only being deployed by women at all.
So criticism of it, or its effects, is not automatically "turning stuff back on women".
Though of course, it will also be used that way.
Yeah I take your point. I suppose in this instance I feel a little man whispering/ a gentler explanation can serve us all.Pls reread thread title and tell me this is not what you are doing.
I can understand how the term toxic masculinity would wind people up, because it does sound like it's saying all men are toxic but not us fair maidens oh no, we're lovely, coated in sprinkles and rainbows.
Not toxic masculinity per se, the discussion in the posts above about toxic femininity
When do we stop giving ground? When do we stop moderating, stepping back, not calling stuff out, dancing round stuff so we don’t offend men? *This* is man whispering.
No, calling out specific, actionable behaviours isn't giving ground or man whispering, it's helpful and constructive. Using phrases or words that are either mystifying or put your target audiences backs up - or, as seen here, provide a hostage to fortune in the shape of the whataboutary of toxic femininity to those who are intrinsically hostile, is just stupid politics.
I agree with all of that. I suppose I'm thinking that in real life, with the kinds of men and boys I meet and know the term would shut down conversation not open it up.The thing is that toxic masculinity refers to a particular kind of macho, bullying, entitled posturing that also affects men and boys themselves.
What's been suggested here is that simply having a name for it stigmatises boys so much they no longer want to be boys. I think that's bullshit.
It doesn't sound like all men are toxic at all. It doesn't sound like we are saying girls and women are fair maidens in opposition either. It also doesn't erase the very fact that women need this language as part of and to characterise the struggle against patriarchy and it's ongoing oppression of women and 'ruining' of boys/men.
I can understand that when working with young people such terminology would be the poorer choice over explaining/talking through certain behaviours in terms of why and how etc...but this conversation and thread has done that already with the men of urban reading it over and over again.
mojo pixy and anyone else who wants to can start a thread in which they talk about 'toxic femininity', explore it, share experiences etc...I would have some points to make too btw.
I agree with all of that. I suppose I'm thinking that in real life, with the kinds of men and boys I meet and know the term would shut down conversation not open it up.
Maybe the tendency for individual men to see themselves as grouped with ‘all men’ is itself a result of the patriarchy - a fear of being on the outside of the group.
I think this is exactly my issue kabbes. What words can women (and men, but the reaction seems to me to be when women use them) use that everyone is OK with while calling out a set of behaviours that are intrinsic to the worst of the masculine within the patriarchy? Without writing a heavily caveated paragraph each time?What would you suggest as an alternative? Because I'd say those responses are coming anyway and they're not just a response to the phrase. It's not as if these debates are lacking in whataboutery until toxic masculinity is mentioned is it?
Sorry— can you just remind me of the context in which you’ve tagged me in here? I can’t remember what I said that would have prompted the responseI think this is exactly my issue kabbes. What words can women (and men, but the reaction seems to me to be when women use them) use that everyone is OK with while calling out a set of behaviours that are intrinsic to the worst of the masculine within the patriarchy? Without writing a heavily caveated paragraph each time?
Mojo pixy's.
Maybe the tendency for individual men to see themselves as grouped with ‘all men’ is itself a result of the patriarchy - a fear of being on the outside of the group.
Bollocks. If I wrote 'all women' do you think the offence caused would be a result of some horrific mix of individual women saying 'well that's not me' and a their alleged need to be part of some monolithic 'sisterhood', or just that I was obviously talking tripe?