Feminism- experiences of man-whispering and the refusal to do so...

[purenarcotic]

You may find that due to lack of resources the police will be unwilling to act as an escort - we’ve seen a big decrease in them doing this so women can collect belongings for example.

It may be best to ask friends to go with you and then call 999 if he kicks off as they’re more likely to attend.

 

[8ball]

Nope, no, read the tiny collection of stories about women from teens to late middle age on this thread, and guess again.

Please try not to minimise this as a set of unusual circumstances.

I can’t think where you could have got the idea that I was trying to minimise anything as unusual or a ‘fluke contemporary occurrence’. I was just hoping things *get* better.

I had in mind those stories from posters talking about 20-30+ years of adult life filled with awful experiences, but yeah, with some of these stories from younger women and girls it does seem like a forlorn hope.

 

[8ball]

It's coming to an end at last. But it's very very very unpleasant.

Hoping this part of it goes quickly and smoothly and that you are soon safely living somewhere you feel secure.

I don’t know where you are in the world, but if you need anyone there while getting his stuff out of the house, please speak up.

I’ve been involved supporting someone in the past and on that occasion I think the presence of a friend there of each gender helped quell a few possibilities for reaction and manipulation.

 

[trashpony]

I can’t think where you could have got the idea that I was trying to minimise anything as unusual or a ‘fluke contemporary occurrence’. I was just hoping things *get* better.

I had in mind those stories from posters talking about 20-30+ years of adult life filled with awful experiences, but yeah, with some of these stories from younger women and girls it does seem like a forlorn hope.

There was a blog post from a young woman I read the other day which annoying I can’t find at the moment. She was talking about the effect of porn on some of her ex boyfriends. It was really foul.

 

[RubyToogood]

Universal porn and Tinder culture is a horrible combination.

There was a blog post from a young woman I read the other day which annoying I can’t find at the moment. She was talking about the effect of porn on some of her ex boyfriends. It was really foul.

 

[mango5]

Or that on one occasion you just ran out of that physical and mental energy.

No. I was describing the corrosive and relentless self-silencing and subsequent self-blaming for being quiet that many women have described. None of the examples are one-off experiences.

I can’t think where you could have got the idea that I was trying to minimise anything as unusual or a ‘fluke contemporary occurrence’

Your first sentence as quoted for your convenience. Not my misreading.

 

[8ball]

There was a blog post from a young woman I read the other day which annoying I can’t find at the moment. She was talking about the effect of porn on some of her ex boyfriends. It was really foul.

Fair point - I hadn’t considered the changes in porn availability/culture when I said that.

 

[JudithB]

I worry about porn and young men. I know they are looking at it. I worry the older ones are showing the younger one. It is much more than finding a tit mag under a dodgy mattress in the woods. It's on their phones, it's in their bedrooms. It's 24/7

I do wonder if it affecting older men too. Misogyny is rife. The backlash to feminism is much bigger than I ever anticipated. I cannot help but think there is a connection.

 

[mojo pixy]

I think boys hearing frequently that masculinity is toxic, with no subtlety of 'what kinds' are toxic and no clear path away from toxicity, risks (and is) creating a kind of bunker mentality.

 

[mojo pixy]

Also I believe, convincing a growing number of boys that they just don't want to be boys any more...

 

[Treacle Toes]

Also I believe, convincing a growing number of boys that they just don't want to be boys any more...

Can you expand on this point please? Are you saying that boys hearing that masculinity is 'toxic' is making them not want to be boys as opposed to them experiencing how 'toxic' masculinity can be and rejecting it?

 

[Puddy_Tat]

I think boys hearing frequently that masculinity is toxic,

is anyone genuinely saying that?

yes, there is a concept of 'toxic masculinity' - from where i'm sitting it comes across more as a message that you don't have to be an emotionally illiterate, violent, sexist dickhead to be a man...

 

[mojo pixy]

Can you expand on this point please?

I'd rather not. Better if it sparks argument as it is, blunt.

 

[mojo pixy]

Or not. Either way.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I'd rather not. Better if it sparks argument as it is, blunt.

Shame, I think it's an interesting point and worthy of discussion. Be unfortunate if people have to imagine what you mean/t and get it wrong wouldn't it?

 

[mango5]

I'd rather not. Better if it sparks argument as it is, blunt.

Did you mean to post this on the man-whispering thread? Seems more pertinent to the male experiences of patriarchy thread. You give the impression that masculinity is under seige and this requires an argument with women.

 

[Combustible]

I think boys hearing frequently that masculinity is toxic, with no subtlety of 'what kinds' are toxic and no clear path away from toxicity, risks (and is) creating a kind of bunker mentality.

Do most boys hear that frequently? I was under the impression that talk of toxic masculinity was still relatively niche. At least to the extent that it won't have a significant effect on most boys, unless they seek out particular (pro or anti) feminist sources

 

[mojo pixy]

Be unfortunate if people have to imagine what you mean/t and get it wrong wouldn't it?

Yeah, tragic. Sadly experience tells me such a response has nothing to do with how articulately a point is expanded.

 

[mojo pixy]

Did you mean to post this on the man-whispering thread? Seems more pertinent to the male experiences of patriarchy thread.

I knew where I was posting. My reply was a direct one to the post above it.

Threads do sometimes get conflated in my head, but to be fair there are often several similar threads which get a bit mixed up. Plus occasional digressions.

 

[kebabking]

Perhaps more accurately, aspects of traditional/whatever masculinity are under attack (rightly perhaps), but those aspects are couched in vague terms - toxic masculinity (what the fuck does that mean? Ask 10 random men in Bolton, or Kidderminster, or Plymouth and you'll get 9 blank looks) - or in quasi-academic terms, like Patriarchy, and very little of the subject is accessible to anyone who either doesn't understand those terms through academic/professional study, or with the inclination and ability to research those terms.

Toxic masculinity is a shit phrase - it neither actually makes clear what the problems are, and allows the interpretation that masculinity itself is toxic - hence the potential for seige mentality and the backlash.

By deliberately using quasi-academic/scientific terms and arguments in an effort to sound academic and scientific - and therefore right - you exclude 90% of the men, and women, who you need to persuade.

Foot, meet shotgun.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Yeah, tragic. Sadly experience tells me such a response has nothing to do with how articulately a point is expanded.

I think you are being unfair here. You have posted something that could make for an interesting discussion but are also refusing to clarify by inferring it will lead to arguments because 'experience' has told you it will. Right.

I think mango5 's question is a good one. Why post it here and not on the 'male experiences of patriarchy' thread?

Toxic masculinity is a product of patriarchy, not feminism after all.

 

[mango5]

I knew where I was posting. My reply was a direct one to the post above it.

Threads do sometimes get conflated in my head, but to be fair there are often several similar threads which get a bit mixed up. Plus occasional digressions.

OK, I agree that much of the discussion across the threads is entangled.
I don't see the link between your post and the preceeding one though. Just seems like a wind-up.

 

[Treacle Toes]

It does read as if 'feminism' is being blamed for a 'bunker mentality' and for making 'boys not want to be boys' anymore. That's the only follow on response to the post above I can see.

 

[kebabking]

It does read as if 'feminism' is being blamed for a 'bunker mentality' and for making 'boys not want to be boys' anymore. That's the only follow on response to the post above I can see.

Only if you either can't read, or - as here..

Shame, I think it's an interesting point and worthy of discussion. Be unfortunate if people have to imagine what you mean/t and get it wrong wouldn't it?

quite deliberately seek to missinterpret what someone says.

Feminism isn't responsible for a backlash against Feminism or a siege mentality with Masculinity, toxic or not, but it is responsible for a poor choice of language that either mystifies, bores, or provokes hostility within its target audience.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Right. So feminism is to blame after all which is exactly what it appeared was being posted.

Oh and get stuffed with your accusations of misreading and deliberate misinterpreting. I specifically asked for clarification.

​

 

[mojo pixy]

Feminism is not to blame for any kind of masculinity. But behaviour we all know is just toxic behaviour is being touted quite widely these days as toxic masculinity. Where's toxic femininity? Nowhere. So what are boys to make of this, and how might feeling ''toxic'' (in a way girls apparently are not meant to feel) affect how they behave towards girls?

I think that's about all the expansion I'l be giving, and only so that discussion doesn't focus on ''what mojo pixy meant'' because what I meant means fuck all, this is a box with a small ceiling. Outside there's a world of girls and boys learning about each other.

 

[8ball]

I’ve seen ‘toxic femininity’ discussed in a couple of places, and it seems to form two very distinct strands, one strand of which gets discussed on here and the other not so much.

There are also occasional discussions about “non-toxic masculinity”. That might be one for the “male experiences of patriarchy”, or maybe its own thread.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Feminism is not to blame for any kind of masculinity. But behaviour we all know is just toxic behaviour is being touted quite widely these days as toxic masculinity. Where's toxic femininity? Nowhere. So what are boys to make of this, and how might feeling ''toxic'' (in a way girls apparently are not meant to feel) affect how they behave towards girls?

Stop behaving like a girl/bitch/sissy.
You big girl's blouse.
Fishwife.
Nag.
Hysterical harridan.
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.
Women traditionally treated as the possession of men.
Traditionally female work being less valued.
Women treated as inferior because of their biological sex.

Nowhere?
Misogyny no longer exists?
What?

Girls are taught pretty much from childhood that they are inferior to boys/males. That they are less capable and less valued. Their femininity is used to undermine and oppress them. It is treated like an affliction that they should be ashamed of unless it is in the service of men. That is why boys learn from a young age to hate and abuse women...Not because the feminist struggle has sought to change this and has named certain behaviour 'toxic masculinity' surely?

 

[Santino]

Let's talk about toxic blackness.

 

[mojo pixy]

toxic everything, everywhere, all the time. vast islands of rubbish in the oceans. as without, so within.

and empathy? why the fuck should i, right?

anyway. enough toxic blah. sorries all round.