Feminism- experiences of man-whispering and the refusal to do so...

[kalidarkone]

I think this is exactly my issue kabbes. What words can women (and men, but the reaction seems to me to be when women use them) use that everyone is OK with while calling out a set of behaviours that are intrinsic to the worst of the masculine within the patriarchy? Without writing a heavily caveated paragraph each time?

Do you mean kebabking ?

 

[kebabking]

You need to calm down and actually read what Winot wrote.

Oh, sweet irony...

 

[Steel Icarus]

anyone else who wants to can start a thread in which they talk about 'toxic femininity', explore it, share experiences etc...I would have some points to make too btw.

Why don't you start it? I think it would be better started by a woman, and if you already have points to make...

 

[Manter]

Sorry— can you just remind me of the context in which you’ve tagged me in here? I can’t remember what I said that would have prompted the response

Miss-tag because I’m an idiot

 

[Manter]

Do you mean kebabking ?

Bollocks yes I do. Sorry kabbes and kebabking.

Random people to get confused! In my defence (!) my small woke me up at 2am and I spent the rest of the night in his bed with a snoring cat while he luxuriated in my bed with his dad. I don’t do well on sleep deprivation

 

[Treacle Toes]

Why don't you start it? I think it would be better started by a woman, and if you already have points to make...

Why do I have to do it? I already started this one and some people are coming onto it to wanting to talk about 'toxic femininity'.

Having points I could make doesn't mean it needs to be me does it? Clearly others here have points to make too.

 

[Manter]

Why don't you start it? I think it would be better started by a woman, and if you already have points to make...

I’ve started it

 

[Steel Icarus]

Why do I have to do it? I already started this one and some people are coming onto it to wanting to talk about 'toxic femininity'.

Having points I could make doesn't mean it needs to be me does it? Clearly others here have points to make too.

Jesus FC, it was only a suggestion, not an edict

 

[Treacle Toes]

Jesus FC, it was only a suggestion, not an edict

Seriously cock off with this nonsense. Why didn't you start it? Why do women have to do all the fucking work on these subjects and still get condescended to and ridiculed? Pathetic.

 

[8ball]

I think this is exactly my issue kabbes. What words can women (and men, but the reaction seems to me to be when women use them) use that everyone is OK with while calling out a set of behaviours that are intrinsic to the worst of the masculine within the patriarchy? Without writing a heavily caveated paragraph each time?

Our U.S. cousins seem to like the term "douchebaggery".
Not sure about a British equivalent...

 

[Pickman's model]

Our U.S. cousins seem to like the term "douchebaggery".
Not sure about a British equivalent...

Fuckwittery

 

[8ball]

Fuckwittery

A bit too broadly applicable, I think.

 

[mojo pixy]

no-one says 'all men' though.

This is true, but ''not all men'' has become a term of derision. I know there is a difference but in the heat of the moment that distinction can easily be missed.

Fuck it, I broke. And this thread is not meant to be about men, sorry for my part in this derail.

FTR I for one know all about man-whispering, woman-whispering and in fact I've had specialist training in de-escalation and ''managing challenging behaviour''. That was for work but I've found it amazingly useful in everyday life anyway .. for dealing with those who can't help it, but also for dealing with those who arguably can help it but choose not to.

(EtA, I should mention, this training did come along with some light disengage / self-defence moves eg how to get your arm out of someone's hand even when they're a lot stronger. Which is probably essential because 'no plan survives contact with the enemy'.

Anyway, pro tip, twist the held arm firmly in the direction their thumb is ponting, as you pull away)

Right, I'm back to reading.

 

[killer b]

This is true, but ''not all men'' has become a term of derision. I know there is a difference but in the heat of the moment that distinction can easily be missed.

It's a term of derision due to the way many men's immediate response to any discussion on behaviours that are common in men is to raise exceptions to those common behaviours, rather than engage with the meat of the criticism. It's maybe not always the most helpful of phrases, but again - it describes a very common and identifiable pattern of behaviour that is reasonable to challenge. These threads are thick with it. They always are.

 

[chilango]

It's a term of derision due to the way many men's immediate response to any discussion on behaviours that are common in men is to raise exceptions to those common behaviours, rather than engage with the meat of the criticism. It's maybe not always the most helpful of phrases, but again - it describes a very common and identifiable pattern of behaviour that is reasonable to challenge. These threads are thick with it. They always are.

Well if course.

But (putting it crudely) saying "men do X" is going to get that sort of response from men who don't do X.

 

[killer b]

Sometimes, perhaps - although I'd encourage men who don't do X not to get all defensive when women - sometimes imprecisely - criticise men who do X: they aren't criticising you! But tbh I think it's often a reaction caused by the discomfort that comes from someone describing behaviour that actually, you do do.

 

[Steel Icarus]

Seriously cock off with this nonsense. Why didn't you start it? Why do women have to do all the fucking work on these subjects and still get condescended to and ridiculed? Pathetic.

Textbook.

 

[Clair De Lune]

I think this is exactly my issue kabbes. What words can women (and men, but the reaction seems to me to be when women use them) use that everyone is OK with while calling out a set of behaviours that are intrinsic to the worst of the masculine within the patriarchy? Without writing a heavily caveated paragraph each time?

This issue has come up in other threads too (trans related) sometimes we have to compromise and use other people's preferred words (example - gc feminist) in order to further conversation and not get peoples backs up. It doesn't mean other terms were intended to get people's backs up but once we know they do we compromise to aid communication. I'm not suggesting people shouldn't use 'toxic masculinity' btw just describing why I won't be anymore.

 

[Winot]

Bollocks. If I wrote 'all women' do you think the offence caused would be a result of some horrific mix of individual women saying 'well that's not me' and a their alleged need to be part of some monolithic 'sisterhood', or just that I was obviously talking tripe?

I wasn't referring to someone literally using the term 'all men'. I mean that fear of being on the outside of a group (the group of men) means that when a sub-set of that group is criticised it is harder to notionally step outside and think "well that's not me and it's OK for me to criticise too". Instead herd instinct takes over and defences go up ("I'm not safe outside the group I'd better stay inside with the big boys").

 

[Manter]

This issue has come up in other threads too (trans related) sometimes we have to compromise and use other people's preferred words (example - gc feminist) in order to further conversation and not get peoples backs up. It doesn't mean other terms were intended to get people's backs up but once we know they do we compromise to aid communication. I'm not suggesting people shouldn't use 'toxic masculinity' btw just describing why I won't be anymore.

I guess where I was going is what are we allowed to use that doesn’t upset? And at what point do we get to have the ‘that thing that upset you? Can we talk about how we change it now, rather than your feelings please?’ Conversation. For (some) men it’s used to shut the conversation down not to have the conversation in a slightly different way. The latter I could go with!

 

[kebabking]

I wasn't referring to someone literally using the term 'all men'. I mean that fear of being on the outside of a group (the group of men) means that when a sub-set of that group is criticised it is harder to notionally step outside and think "well that's not me and it's OK for me to criticise too". Instead herd instinct takes over and defences go up ("I'm not safe outside the group I'd better stay inside with the big boys").

why do you think men - as in an individual man - have a fear of being outside 'the group of men'?

i simply see no basis for this idea that men - and i am one, and i work with lots of others, so give me credit for having some insight into how i and my social/work circle behave - have this herd instinct/feeling you seem to be suggesting that we do. i, for example, don't see my masculinity (or maleness, or whetever) as having any connection with, or based on similar things to, the drunk Scouser we heard about earlier in the thread who was screaming dogs abuse down the phone at his girlfriend.

masculinity is, from my observation - and i assume rather like femininity - a sweetshop-like selection and spectrum of behaviours and attitudes, some of which are somewhat less desirable than others, and if a number of those behaviours/attitudes are found in one individual they can produce a toxic mix, particularly when matched with other undesirable, but not neccessarily gendered behaviours. i may have got the characteristics of my masculinity from the same sweetshop as that drunk scouser, but i obviously didn't get the same selection, and i have no more emotional/familial/whatever link with either him, or anyone else who's been to that sweetshop, than i have to the people i didn't recognise walking out of the sweetshop that i drove past this morning.

there is no, for me at least, brotherhood of men from which i draw some comfort or which - materially or internally through expectation - governs my behaviour.

 

[Winot]

Good for you.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Textbook.

Yes your manipulations are textbook. There will always be one more thing. The threads won't be good enough, the language won't be good enough, you'll keep telling us we are wrong and expect us to make new threads and use words that you like and when we get bored and frustrated and refuse, you do this and imply it's evidence of you be right all along. It will never be enough.

 

[8ball]

This issue has come up in other threads too (trans related) sometimes we have to compromise and use other people's preferred words (example - gc feminist) in order to further conversation and not get peoples backs up. It doesn't mean other terms were intended to get people's backs up but once we know they do we compromise to aid communication. I'm not suggesting people shouldn't use 'toxic masculinity' btw just describing why I won't be anymore.

Sometimes new terms break out of their original confines and get plastered everywhere, then it's hard to get them back in the box. Rather like 'terf' which had a very specific meaning not too long ago.

 

[Steel Icarus]

Yes your manipulations are textbook. There will always be one more thing. The threads won't be good enough, the language won't be good enough, you'll keep telling us we are wrong and expect us to make new threads and use words that you like and when we get bored and frustrated and refuse, you do this and imply it's evidence of you be right all along. It will never be enough.

Textbook dishonesty.

 

[bellaozzydog]

Yes your manipulations are textbook. There will always be one more thing. The threads won't be good enough, the language won't be good enough, you'll keep telling us we are wrong and expect us to make new threads and use words that you like and when we get bored and frustrated and refuse, you do this and imply it's evidence of you be right all along. It will never be enough.

TBH This could be redirected back at the feminist content on various current threads

 

[Treacle Toes]

Textbook dishonesty.

Textbook projection.

 

[existentialist]

I’m in a camping group on Facebook which I don’t post in but they’ve kicked loads of blokes out for harassing women. And turn down about 50% of blokes who want to join because it looks like they only want to join because they want to harass women.

I am in awe of how many women go up hills and camp on their own or with their kids.

Coming to this late, but I think I know which group you mean. And what is quite breathtaking has been the hostility and anger from some group members at this policing. Real hot'n'angry outrage at it. And all the usual "so does that mean women can't PM men in the group, too?" bullshit.

 

[Saul Goodman]

The thing is that toxic masculinity refers to a particular kind of macho, bullying, entitled posturing that also affects men and boys themselves.

What's been suggested here is that simply having a name for it stigmatises boys so much they no longer want to be boys. I think that's bullshit.

It doesn't sound like all men are toxic at all.

It sounds exactly like all masculine men are toxic. That may not be how you mean it but that's exactly how it sounds.

 

[8ball]

Coming to this late, but I think I know which group you mean. And what is quite breathtaking has been the hostility and anger from some group members at this policing. Real hot'n'angry outrage at it. And all the usual "so does that mean women can't PM men in the group, too?" bullshit.

Ugh, think I must have been hanging around the nicer corners of Facebook.
I'd have thought camping would be a pretty subject area for people who enjoy a soggy, depressing weekend in a field, then a lovely hot bath after.