kalidarkone
Bringing YOU round.....
Do you mean kebabking ?
Feminism- experiences of man-whispering and the refusal to do so...
- Thread starter Treacle Toes
- Start date
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
Oh, sweet irony...
Steel Icarus
we move
Why don't you start it? I think it would be better started by a woman, and if you already have points to make...
Manter
Lunch Mob
Sorry— can you just remind me of the context in which you’ve tagged me in here? I can’t remember what I said that would have prompted the response
Miss-tag because I’m an idiot
Treacle Toes
Time
Steel Icarus
we move
Jesus FC, it was only a suggestion, not an edictWhy do I have to do it?I already started this one and some people are coming onto it to wanting to talk about 'toxic femininity'.
Having points I could make doesn't mean it needs to be me does it? Clearly others here have points to make too.
Treacle Toes
Time
8ball
Decolonise colons!
Our U.S. cousins seem to like the term "douchebaggery".
Not sure about a British equivalent...
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Fuckwittery
8ball
Decolonise colons!
A bit too broadly applicable, I think.
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
This is true, but ''not all men'' has become a term of derision. I know there is a difference but in the heat of the moment that distinction can easily be missed.
Fuck it, I broke. And this thread is not meant to be about men, sorry for my part in this derail.
FTR I for one know all about man-whispering, woman-whispering and in fact I've had specialist training in de-escalation and ''managing challenging behaviour''. That was for work but I've found it amazingly useful in everyday life anyway .. for dealing with those who can't help it, but also for dealing with those who arguably can help it but choose not to.
(EtA, I should mention, this training did come along with some light disengage / self-defence moves eg how to get your arm out of someone's hand even when they're a lot stronger. Which is probably essential because 'no plan survives contact with the enemy'.
Anyway, pro tip, twist the held arm firmly in the direction their thumb is ponting, as you pull away)
Right, I'm back to reading.
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It's a term of derision due to the way many men's immediate response to any discussion on behaviours that are common in men is to raise exceptions to those common behaviours, rather than engage with the meat of the criticism. It's maybe not always the most helpful of phrases, but again - it describes a very common and identifiable pattern of behaviour that is reasonable to challenge. These threads are thick with it. They always are.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Well if course.
But (putting it crudely) saying "men do X" is going to get that sort of response from men who don't do X.
Sometimes, perhaps - although I'd encourage men who don't do X not to get all defensive when women - sometimes imprecisely - criticise men who do X: they aren't criticising you! But tbh I think it's often a reaction caused by the discomfort that comes from someone describing behaviour that actually, you do do.
Steel Icarus
we move
Textbook.Seriously cock off with this nonsense. Why didn't you start it? Why do women have to do all the fucking work on these subjects and still get condescended to and ridiculed?Pathetic.
Clair De Lune
Apocalypse cocktails
This issue has come up in other threads too (trans related) sometimes we have to compromise and use other people's preferred words (example - gc feminist) in order to further conversation and not get peoples backs up. It doesn't mean other terms were intended to get people's backs up but once we know they do we compromise to aid communication. I'm not suggesting people shouldn't use 'toxic masculinity' btw just describing why I won't be anymore.
Winot
I wholeheartedley agree with your viewpoint
I wasn't referring to someone literally using the term 'all men'. I mean that fear of being on the outside of a group (the group of men) means that when a sub-set of that group is criticised it is harder to notionally step outside and think "well that's not me and it's OK for me to criticise too". Instead herd instinct takes over and defences go up ("I'm not safe outside the group I'd better stay inside with the big boys").
Manter
Lunch Mob
I guess where I was going is what are we allowed to use that doesn’t upset? And at what point do we get to have the ‘that thing that upset you? Can we talk about how we change it now, rather than your feelings please?’ Conversation. For (some) men it’s used to shut the conversation down not to have the conversation in a slightly different way. The latter I could go with!
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
why do you think men - as in an individual man - have a fear of being outside 'the group of men'?
i simply see no basis for this idea that men - and i am one, and i work with lots of others, so give me credit for having some insight into how i and my social/work circle behave - have this herd instinct/feeling you seem to be suggesting that we do. i, for example, don't see my masculinity (or maleness, or whetever) as having any connection with, or based on similar things to, the drunk Scouser we heard about earlier in the thread who was screaming dogs abuse down the phone at his girlfriend.
masculinity is, from my observation - and i assume rather like femininity - a sweetshop-like selection and spectrum of behaviours and attitudes, some of which are somewhat less desirable than others, and if a number of those behaviours/attitudes are found in one individual they can produce a toxic mix, particularly when matched with other undesirable, but not neccessarily gendered behaviours. i may have got the characteristics of my masculinity from the same sweetshop as that drunk scouser, but i obviously didn't get the same selection, and i have no more emotional/familial/whatever link with either him, or anyone else who's been to that sweetshop, than i have to the people i didn't recognise walking out of the sweetshop that i drove past this morning.
there is no, for me at least, brotherhood of men from which i draw some comfort or which - materially or internally through expectation - governs my behaviour.
Treacle Toes
Time
Yes your manipulations are textbook. There will always be one more thing. The threads won't be good enough, the language won't be good enough, you'll keep telling us we are wrong and expect us to make new threads and use words that you like and when we get bored and frustrated and refuse, you do this and imply it's evidence of you be right all along. It will never be enough.
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8ball
Decolonise colons!
Sometimes new terms break out of their original confines and get plastered everywhere, then it's hard to get them back in the box. Rather like 'terf' which had a very specific meaning not too long ago.
Steel Icarus
we move
Textbook dishonesty.
bellaozzydog
rolling turds in glitter
TBH This could be redirected back at the feminist content on various current threads
Treacle Toes
Time
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
Coming to this late, but I think I know which group you mean. And what is quite breathtaking has been the hostility and anger from some group members at this policing. Real hot'n'angry outrage at it. And all the usual "so does that mean women can't PM men in the group, too?" bullshit.
Saul Goodman
It's all good, man
It sounds exactly like all masculine men are toxic. That may not be how you mean it but that's exactly how it sounds.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
Ugh, think I must have been hanging around the nicer corners of Facebook.
I'd have thought camping would be a pretty subject area for people who enjoy a soggy, depressing weekend in a field, then a lovely hot bath after.
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