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Feminism- experiences of man-whispering and the refusal to do so...

Ugh, think I must have been hanging around the nicer corners of Facebook. :(
I'd have thought camping would be a pretty subject area for people who enjoy a soggy, depressing weekend in a field, then a lovely hot bath after.
You'd think so, wouldn't you. But campers are some of the worst people on the planet. The epitome of 'toxic masculinity'. They're the kind of people who (think they) know everything, from the best gas to use for the best camping stove, to how you're not putting your tent up properly, and they can't wait to tell you. Their whole life seems to revolve around reading camping magazines, and regurgitating the contents to like-minded individuals, and god help you if you're not sufficiently clued up on the latest and greatest spork! :D
 
Textbook projection.
Except it's not. You attributed to me directly things I did not say and insisted I demanded things of you I did not. It's dishonest, and very much in line with SOP of Twitter etc, designed purposely to keep you simultaneously in control of all discourse yet the victim of whatever you decide.
 
Ugh, think I must have been hanging around the nicer corners of Facebook. :(
I'd have thought camping would be a pretty subject area for people who enjoy a soggy, depressing weekend in a field, then a lovely hot bath after.
Well, I wasn't aware of it going on until the mods started posting about flinging people out of the group. I think most of it was pretty covert, dark murky corners type stuff. But if it wasn't, a lot more people are now aware and watching out for it. It was also interesting that the mods were pushing hard against the idea of retaliatory activity - "name and shame 'em, and we'll C&P the posts to their partners" type stuff. It was done as well as could be hoped for, I think.
 
Except it's not. You attributed to me directly things I did not say and insisted I demanded things of you I did not. It's dishonest, and very much in line with SOP of Twitter etc, designed purposely to keep you simultaneously in control of all discourse yet the victim of whatever you decide.

:D Oh get over yourself...you are on every single one of these threads pretty much telling us that we are doing it wrong and supporting attempts to undermine them whilst simultaneously moaning you don't feel you can get involved with the discussion because we are going about it too robustly for your sensitivities, and because shhhhhhhh you can't say the things you want to say in public.

You are wanting us to start all the new threads, find language that doesn't upset you, frame and reframe our opinions and experiences to suit you, explain ourselves over and over again and it's still not enough. You are the one claiming victimhood. You shift the goalposts all the time and still can't seem to spend a second to realise just how controlling and manipulative that is.

But hey, blame me anyway.
 
That is an utterly misleading and inaccurate load of old pony. I've engaged in a lot of these threads (none of which I demanded be started, and several of which JudithB proudly started). I've learned loads and acknowledged that. I've shared a fair bit of personal stuff. I've been respectful apart from a spat with Sheila which I apologised to her for by PM (which was not accepted - her prerogative). But I'm blowed if I'm going to let you tell lies, no matter what the consequence of daring to challenge you might be.

ETA Rutita1
 
That is an utterly misleading and inaccurate load of old pony. I've engaged in a lot of these threads (none of which I demanded be started, and several of which JudithB proudly started). I've learned loads and acknowledged that. I've shared a fair bit of personal stuff. I've been respectful apart from a spat with Sheila which I apologised to her for by PM (which was not accepted - her prerogative). But I'm blowed if I'm going to let you tell lies, no matter what the consequence of daring to challenge you might be.

ETA Rutita1
I'm not telling lies though and the only consequence of challenging me and calling me a liar is that you get to continue claiming victim hood. I also see you framing this as some kind of David and Goliath battle. Seriously over dramatic and I'm i not interested in wasting any more time pandering to it.
 
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See, that thing of being scared a bloke might turn on you if rejected was a thing I never got the memo about. Ditto, when I read things about how women change where they go, what they do because of fear of men is not something I ever felt, and I have wondered why. Obviously, there is the fact I have had the good fortune never to have been sexually assaulted, nor have I even been harassed much. There’s also, perhaps, that all my mates were male when I was a kid and I was very late to any kind of interest in sex (I relented and started when I was 21, more out of curiosity than anything else). I didn’t think of men as all that different to me and I generally assumed they weren’t sexually interested in me. I never thought much of it if a bloke talked to me; and if he came on to me I never thought anything of saying I wasn’t interested or I didn’t want to talk to them right now. Just did not occur to me to feel threatened and to not just tell them it wasn’t going anywhere.

This is not, of course, because ‘all women should be sensible like me and stop being neurotic’- I'm a bit weird like thatl it was my naivete, plus the fact very few men have ever come on to me (as far as I realised); and I guess I was fortunate that none of the guys I turned down ever was abusive or violent to me in response.

Can't love your post enough.

I grew up similarly to you, as an only girl in a house full of boys. Had both male and female friends all through school and it was never an issue. I was about 16 or 17 the first time I had a male friend want to keep our friendship secret because his girlfriend would be jealous, and I remember thinking how sad that was (for everyone involved) in 2003 that some people still think that way. We were in a band together and she knew about our male bandmates, so why was I different? (I managed to win her over after convincing him that lying to her would only confirm her fear that he was hiding something, and we all became good friends in the end). Of course, sometimes it's old-fashioned sexism (the "men and women can't be friends" myth), other times it could be just general insecurity and/or not trusting the person, whether that's due to their actual behaviour, or a bad experience with someone else.

I've mentioned the frustration of having bigger-than-average breasts and having random blokes talk down to you because of it, and some people, who mean well, misinterpret that as me being scared. No, I don't find it scary, I just find it fucking patronising! I mean, he wouldn't talk about his male acquaintance's dick all night because that would be weird. It makes me angry when some blokes do that, not because I'm intimidated or I think they'll try anything, but because they're treating me as unintelligent or a sex object because of my sexual organs in a way they wouldn't with a bloke. All I want is equal treatment, that's all, and I refuse to believe that the culprits can reach adulthood and not understand that "Nice tits!" IS NOT A COMPLIMENT!!! :mad:

And don't get me started on "Oooh, ladies, don't go out at night alone if you can avoid it." Why shouldn't I? I'm an adult and a free citizen, and I can go where I want when I want. I do take precautions, like keeping my phone on me and sticking to well lit main roads, which I think is sensible for anyone; however, if someone doesn't do those things, that doesn't make it their fault if something happens. My sleeping patterns have been shot to shit recently, due to a combination of a bereavement and unbearably hot weather. Sometimes I'll wake up all hot and bothered at three in the morning (assuming I got to sleep at all) and need a walk round the block to tire myself out. Why shouldn't I do that if I feel like it?

In fact, while women are statistically at higher risk of sexual assault, I've often read that men are statistically more likely to be mugged, beaten up, stabbed, or the victim of acid attacks. Yet we don't tell men not to go out at night, do we? I believe everyone should do what they feel is safest, and that's going to vary from person to person. Ultimately, we can't truly claim the sexes are equal while society is still using the threat of sexual assault as an excuse to restrict women's movements or freedoms. This is what I believe we should be pushing back against.
 
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Yes, that last bit does annoy me - I think blokes are more at risk of being in a fight or whatever than women are of being raped/assaulted, but we don't tell boys to stay inside. Because the assumption is men can, and should, look after themselves whereas women are 'vulnerable' and if they 'put themselves in harm's way' they are partially to blame for any of the consequences. :mad:

I want to teach my kids to be careful but I don't want to say to my daughter (but not my son) 'Ooh, don't go on public transport, never go anywhere alone after dark ever' or anything like that.
 
Well I've spent virtually my whole w/e reading 2 forums. Even turned down a free festie so I could carry on! There are several other forums mentioned I intend to visit as well.

Can I just say, bravo and encore to all those women who have been playing ping pong! Your energy, patience and fortitude has been a marvel to behold. I'm exhausted just reading it all. You all deserve praise, because most of the time you've batted those balls (sic) back using reasoned argument & tried to illustrate the scale and enormity of the "problem" using some very personal anecdotes. Thanks so much for that, for being courageous enough & honest enough to open up about your various experiences of this system we live under called Patriarchy.

I get the impression that this has been Patriarchy & Consciousness-raising 101 for a lot of posters. It can be something of a shock to the system when you are first made aware of some of this stuff. Fortunately, once you've had your consciousness raised, you can't pretend - or not for long anyway - that you don't know about it. You can't crawl back under the rock as it were.

On a positive note, we are undergoing a paradigm shift, in which we are all involved, because we now know a tiny fraction of what's been happening for far too long.

As the young 'uns say, we are now woke to this shit!

Thank you for your efforts on all our behalves.
 
I'm so glad I slapped him :D although I will be honest that him whispering in my ear things like 'why did you hit me? I didnt hit You! Youre out of order, youre crazy!' Did for a second make me question myself and wonder whether I'd overreacted :facepalm: which is why I told the barman what happened.. to get a second opinion cos the gaslighting was starting to work. But I know now I was simply defending myself from a gross and uncalled for attack and I hope his fucking ears rung the next day making bands unbearable :thumbs::D:eek:
 
That is an utterly misleading and inaccurate load of old pony. I've engaged in a lot of these threads (none of which I demanded be started, and several of which JudithB proudly started). I've learned loads and acknowledged that. I've shared a fair bit of personal stuff. I've been respectful apart from a spat with Sheila which I apologised to her for by PM (which was not accepted - her prerogative). But I'm blowed if I'm going to let you tell lies, no matter what the consequence of daring to challenge you might be.

ETA Rutita1

She’ll misrepresent you to suit her agenda and attack the straw men of her own creation. It should be in the FAQ not to do this but apparently it isn’t. I think it’s her hobby or something.
 
She’ll misrepresent you to suit her agenda and attack the straw men of her own creation. It should be in the FAQ not to do this but apparently it isn’t. I think it’s her hobby or something.

Fair enough. But these tactics are ongoing.

You are shamefully desperate for attention and beef. So much so that you"ve come onto this thread to shit stir a 2 month old discussion that you had nothing to do with.

You can't stand that I don't care about your whinging attempts at beef on other threads so here you are looking to entice others into your pointless crusade.

You are a joke and your pathetic tactics are a waste of anyone's time.

That you've tried this nonsense on this thread now and given what Clair has posted above says a whole lot. Go away. Child.
 
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I generally don’t read these threads as I got banned from the first. I took a look at the last couple of pages of this one and saw what you are up to and which you’ve been employing against me. That’s probably “PMs of support” for snidey types but I’m honest enough to raise things publicly.
 
Oh Clair De Lune - I''m really sorry this happened - totally back your reaction - and I'm simmering with anger at this end of the screen on your behalf. It just keeps getting banged home, doesn't it, again and again and again, that for (so many) men, women's bodies are just 'fair game' or 'public property' somehow. Men, at least the ones who've had to adopt toxic masculinity, might well punch other men just for looking at them wrong - yet even a 'cowardly, low-conflict' man might well feel entitled to have a quick grab / feel / rip / tear / flash of a woman's flesh or clothing just on a whim, for a giggle, because they just feel like it. Not looking for a fight, not assuming it's a 'high risk' thrill-seeking thing, just because they fancy a giggle or a feel, and don't expect any sort of retaliation at all. What's wrong with them? More people should react like you, and even harder. When I was in my teens & 20s I had more incidents of this kind of stuff (minus the forced public exposure) than I care to remember and often let it go, feeling too ashamed or weak or intimidated, or kidding myself I was 'too tolerant', to do anything about it. Now that I'm too old for it to be very likely any more, I know *for sure* that anyone laying hands on me in that way is going to get slapped or decked and I won't feel a millisecond of guilt about it.
 
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