Feminism- experiences of man-whispering and the refusal to do so...

[FabricLiveBaby!]

I disagreed with a guy who was arguing with me while also trying to come on to me and completely out of the blue he slapped me hard across the face. We we're at his house as a party was going on. But nobody saw it. I was really shocked but I reacted quickly and slapped him back hard. He was drunk (as was I tbf) so he fell over and pulled me over with him.

This has happened to me a few times too in my youth. A drunken disagreement (hardly a rowdy argument) turns into a slap. And I'm talking about men I know and like, not arsehole randoms.

Well I slap back too. I learned very early to slap back people who say they care about me at home.

Slap back and say "I can't believe you just hit me, that's not ok" really loudly. And then walk away.

It happened once in a club and the bloke was thoroughly embarrassed and ashamed of himself after that. I called it in front of the whole club and all of our mates and he walked away in a rage and apologised for being a drunk twat the next day. It never happened again.

Once it happened with an ex who decided to push me onto a sofa quite suddenly after he got "annoyed" with something I said (I think I laughed at his belief in crystal healing and aliens). I hit him back and said that if he ever touched me again like that I will walk straight out the door and never come back. I was dead serious about that too. . It never happened again.

I reckon this can only be done with people who you know aren't violent arseholes. Hopefully I stopped a pattern of behaviour developing. In both cases I was younger than 22. As I said, I actively avoid hanging out with men who show contempt for women in speech. And I don't mean straight up nastyness. I mean a simmering resentment, the type where men "gang up" put a woman in her place during a discussion.

It seems to have served me well so far.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Now I’m wondering what I should do to sniff these incidences out rather than avoid them.

What I meant by 'sniffing them out' is that I am hyper aware of people who are manipulative, pushy and menacing even if they do this in a charming friendly way...I have had to develop this to keep safe throughout my life. I also developed this awareness because of direct and indirect experiences of abuse. Even as a little girl I listened to my mum and her friends talking about male violence and their strategies. I remember friends of my mum's coming to hide out in our house to escape domestic violence. We had code words and escape plans. Later in my own life as a young woman I started to do the same with my own friends as discussed above. I have had to think about this stuff for as long as I can remember and because of that have a 'radar'.

What I've learnt is that it doesn't matter if I am sometimes over cautious and keep my distance from someone just in case, but it does matter if I don't trust my instincts and get too close and abused.

 

[Winot]

There are some truly shocking experiences on this thread

 

[kabbes]

I guess I do know men — lots of men — that just seem... off around women. Too creepy, too forward, willing to objectify, dehumanise and dismiss. I’ve always avoided such men if I can do so, thinking they were pricks. But I guess if I were female, they’d also be setting off alarm bells for their potential to violence. I get to not have to think about that part because it hasn’t personally affected me.

 

[kalidarkone]

I feel enraged reading of SheilaNaGig and Clair De Lune 's recent experience.

I'm reminded of a guy I was seeing in my early 20's who after quite a few pints pushed me into oncoming traffic. It was the first time I'd ever been on the receiving end of violence from a partner and a man.
I battered the shit out of him. That was the end of that.

I'm a big strong woman with a propensity to 'lose it' under certain conditions....

 

[kalidarkone]

I've been lucky compared to some as I've only been hit by men 2-3 times in my life. One was recently though. I have only told a few people about it.
I disagreed with a guy who was arguing with me while also trying to come on to me and completely out of the blue he slapped me hard across the face. We we're at his house as a party was going on. But nobody saw it. I was really shocked but I reacted quickly and slapped him back hard. He was drunk (as was I tbf) so he fell over and pulled me over with him. Someone saw that and so must have thought we were messing around. I tried to ring myself a taxi but the main companies refused to come to the address so I ended up having to stay the night as I didn't fancy trying to walk 8 miles home partly on a pretty spooky bit of motorway. I was upset and my stomach was in knots so I proceeded to throw up at regular intervals for the rest of the night, which luckily put him off trying too hard to get off with me. Yep he still thought he was in with a chance and he did still try. Forcefully grabbing me and pulling me onto the bed. I do something for safety when I wear a skirt out as I usually live in jeans. I wear knickers, tights and a pair of tight shorts over the top. God that feels weird to type out. But it makes it very hard for a guy to get me naked, even with force and has saved me a few times.
The next day the guy gave me and my friend a lift home and acted like nothing had happened. He was chatty and cheery. I Just stared out of the car window waiting for it to be over. I've not talked to him since and am avoiding places where he might be and I'm losing touch with mutual friends. They all know he's a dick but won't ever ditch him.

I wish I'd done more than slap him tbf. I wish I'd given him bruises he'd have to explain to people but I'm not a fighter or particularly violent so wouldn't have taken pleasure in that and nor would it have felt fair at the time. But argh fuck 'fair' and fuck being reasonable with these guys

If your mutal friends haven't got your back then they are dicks.

 

[mango5]

Hope it's obvious to any men reading that the kinds of threats, violence and aggression described on this thread are by no means dependent on alcohol or drugs or provocation of any sort. It's impossible to predict, especially with strangers.
That's why the fear and state of alert is on a hair-trigger. Safety does not have clear boundaries.

 

[trashpony]

I do something for safety when I wear a skirt out as I usually live in jeans. I wear knickers, tights and a pair of tight shorts over the top. God that feels weird to type out. But it makes it very hard for a guy to get me naked, even with force and has saved me a few times.

That's a very good tip. If I had done that, I wouldn't have been raped the last time I was. It was just too easy for him to push my knickers to one side (and I'm sure I wasn't the first woman he raped and I bet I wasn't the last either). Makes me feel sick though - like telling women not to go out when the Yorkshire Ripper was on the loose rather than telling men to stay in

 

[Manter]

I’ve been attacked (Both sexually and hit) by men I don’t know. But never by a man that was a friend or partner, or I would have to see again.

 

[Mrs Miggins]

The last few stories on this thread have made for very hard reading. Love to you all xxxx

 

[8ball]

Hope it's obvious to any men reading that the kinds of threats, violence and aggression described on this thread are by no means dependent on alcohol or drugs or provocation of any sort. It's impossible to predict, especially with strangers.
That's why the fear and state of alert is on a hair-trigger. Safety does not have clear boundaries.

I wasn't really sure whether to keep reading after accidentally wandering in earlier and reading of SheilaNaGig's recent experience. With the kind of experiences being shared I wasn't too sure whether it was better for the thread if posters felt like they weren't being 'watched' iyswim, but I hadn't got round to finding the 'unfollow' button.

I'd thought earlier that this 'man whispering' tern was just about the kind of ego-massaging that gets done when women are sharing experiences and a man starts taking it personally - as opposed to when there is a need to find an immediate way around that stomach-knotting threat of imminent violence (my stomach certainly knotted up reading some of this).

I think with what you (mango5) say about safety not having clear boundaries, it does remind me of one case where a friend of mine was attacked at a party by someone who at the time was a friend of everyone there. This wasn't a 'setting off the radar person'- this was someone who seemed so gentle and charming and generally unthreatening that we were quite knocked sideways by it. He was a very good friend of one or two people there, but I'm not sure that anyone else who was there ever spoke to him again.

Anyway, I've blathered enough and just really wanted to say what Mrs Miggins just said far more succinctly.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

I am in shock at the levels of abuse and fear that posters have experienced.
Really feel upset reading all of this. I am devastated for everyone who has been treated so appallingly.

I was lucky to grow up in a home where my dad did not drink. He grew up in a rough situation and his dad was an aggressive rough man when drunk. My dad swore he would never touch a drop of alcohol after seeing his mother struggle with keeping the family together.

And I've been really very very lucky to have been in a relationship with someone who was not physically abusive or violent.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

I'd thought earlier that this 'man whispering' tern was just about the kind of ego-massaging that gets done when women are sharing experiences and a man starts taking it personally - as opposed to when there is a need to find an immediate way around that stomach-knotting threat of imminent violence (my stomach certainly knotted up reading some of this).

Thank you for saying this.

Man whispering does start at placation, precisely because women don't know what will happen if they don’t placate a given man on a given day. And this is normally because #YesAllWomen have experienced what happens when you don't placate the nicest of men. Occasionally it ends horribly.

The slap that I and Clair De Lune talked about is also a kind of man whispering.

You can only do it with young men who are otherwise "nice". The mirroring. The returning the undesirable action (more softly) and then highlighting it, is also man-whispering. It highlights shitty behaviour to otherwise good men in a mirror like fashion.

When I hit back and said "I can't believe you just hit me, do it again and I'll walk"

What you're actually saying is:

1) this is what you just did to me - a physical example (slapped/pushed/punched push back)

2) I'm shocked that somone as *good as you* ("I can't believe") has it in them.

3) Here's an ultimatum for that kind of behaviour. I withdraw any affection.


It works. But only if the bloke is nice, young, and pushing boundaries.

It's an exercise in asserting boundeies. When a man has fallen into that behavior pattern it's too risky to do. Or too late.

Like horses.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

I wasn't really sure whether to keep reading after accidentally wandering in earlier and reading of SheilaNaGig's recent experience. With the kind of experiences being shared I wasn't too sure whether it was better for the thread if posters felt like they weren't being 'watched' iyswim, but I hadn't got round to finding the 'unfollow' button.

I'd thought earlier that this 'man whispering' tern was just about the kind of ego-massaging that gets done when women are sharing experiences and a man starts taking it personally - as opposed to when there is a need to find an immediate way around that stomach-knotting threat of imminent violence (my stomach certainly knotted up reading some of this).

I think with what you (mango5) say about safety not having clear boundaries, it does remind me of one case where a friend of mine was attacked at a party by someone who at the time was a friend of everyone there. This wasn't a 'setting off the radar person'- this was someone who seemed so gentle and charming and generally unthreatening that we were quite knocked sideways by it. He was a very good friend of one or two people there, but I'm not sure that anyone else who was there ever spoke to him again.

Anyway, I've blathered enough and just really wanted to say what Mrs Miggins just said far more succinctly.

This thread is in the public arena so I'm not posting on it.

I'm feeling watched. I feel exposed. I'm in danger and I need to stay safe.

Apols for posting with our reading.

Looks like I'm homeless as of tonight.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

Can this thread be moved to a private area?

aqua editor FridgeMagnet

 

[Baronage-Phase]

This thread is in the public arena so I'm not posting on it.

I'm feeling watched. I feel exposed. I'm in danger and I need to stay safe.

Apols for posting with our reading.

Looks like I'm homeless as of tonight.

Oh fuck...this is awful

((((((SheilaNaGig ))))))

 

[Clair De Lune]

That's a very good tip. If I had done that, I wouldn't have been raped the last time I was. It was just too easy for him to push my knickers to one side (and I'm sure I wasn't the first woman he raped and I bet I wasn't the last either). Makes me feel sick though - like telling women not to go out when the Yorkshire Ripper was on the loose rather than telling men to stay in

so sorry trashy. It's horrid that we have to even think like this

 

[trabuquera]

Does staying silent and biting your lip count as man-whispering? Because I had to do some of it just this very weekend. Drunk bloke in the street outside - young, Scouse, well dressed, just spilled out of a quite upscale pub or bar. Screaming - and I do mean SCREAMING hysterically - into his phone to his gf, who wasn't there, about why she had not taken the key to HIS flat ("like I TOLD YOU TO!!!") and gone there to await his return, but had instead gone ... somewhere else, he wasn't sure where. A full-on, verbal abuse, controlling behaviour, terrorise-your-woman tirade it was, complete with every kind of bitch/whore/youfuckingslag/etc language and every coercive control technique you've ever heard about, ("I'm going to smash your face in"/ "I'm throwing you out tomorrow"/"you have NO rights, you do what I tell you"/ "you're getting in bed with him now, aren't you, I know you, you slag" "you worthless cow" etc etc etc.) It went on for more than an hour. I was ITCHING and ACHING to throw open my window and scream abuse back at him - or perhaps give him a firmly worded reminder that women do not exist for his convenience and that he's being really unpleasant to his partner. I have 100% confidence that some DV would have followed, wherever and whenever he found her. But I was home alone. I toyed with calling the police. But I didn't do anything. Because he was drunk. Because he's just some stranger after all. Because I didn't want him to break my window. Because he's a man.

right or wrong? what would you have done? what should I have done? Nobody got hit, it was 'just verbals', and drunk people of any gender are often unbearable, aggressive and loud. He was the one out of order. So why do I feel like the failure for not dealing with the situation right?

 

[Winot]

I would have done nothing and I’m a man

 

[8ball]

This thread is in the public arena so I'm not posting on it.

I'm feeling watched. I feel exposed. I'm in danger and I need to stay safe.

Apols for posting with our reading.

Looks like I'm homeless as of tonight.

I meant ‘watched’ in terms of the posters feeling free to discuss with their words just being seen by other posters, hadn’t even considered the implications in that sense.

Please stay safe.

 

[mango5]

This is the corrosive part. Beating ourselves up because we saved mental and physical energy by having to act with fake pleasantness and unassertiveness. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Worth repeating.

 

[Mrs Miggins]

(((((SheilaNaGig ))))

 

[Mrs Miggins]

Does staying silent and biting your lip count as man-whispering? Because I had to do some of it just this very weekend. Drunk bloke in the street outside - young, Scouse, well dressed, just spilled out of a quite upscale pub or bar. Screaming - and I do mean SCREAMING hysterically - into his phone to his gf, who wasn't there, about why she had not taken the key to HIS flat ("like I TOLD YOU TO!!!") and gone there to await his return, but had instead gone ... somewhere else, he wasn't sure where. A full-on, verbal abuse, controlling behaviour, terrorise-your-woman tirade it was, complete with every kind of bitch/whore/youfuckingslag/etc language and every coercive control technique you've ever heard about, ("I'm going to smash your face in"/ "I'm throwing you out tomorrow"/"you have NO rights, you do what I tell you"/ "you're getting in bed with him now, aren't you, I know you, you slag" "you worthless cow" etc etc etc.) It went on for more than an hour. I was ITCHING and ACHING to throw open my window and scream abuse back at him - or perhaps give him a firmly worded reminder that women do not exist for his convenience and that he's being really unpleasant to his partner. I have 100% confidence that some DV would have followed, wherever and whenever he found her. But I was home alone. I toyed with calling the police. But I didn't do anything. Because he was drunk. Because he's just some stranger after all. Because I didn't want him to break my window. Because he's a man.

right or wrong? what would you have done? what should I have done? Nobody got hit, it was 'just verbals', and drunk people of any gender are often unbearable, aggressive and loud. He was the one out of order. So why do I feel like the failure for not dealing with the situation right?

I would like to think that I would have gone out there all guns blazing but I probably would not have done because the threat of violence towards me and my property would have been too strong by the sounds of it.

 

[Athos]

Does staying silent and biting your lip count as man-whispering? Because I had to do some of it just this very weekend. Drunk bloke in the street outside - young, Scouse, well dressed, just spilled out of a quite upscale pub or bar. Screaming - and I do mean SCREAMING hysterically - into his phone to his gf, who wasn't there, about why she had not taken the key to HIS flat ("like I TOLD YOU TO!!!") and gone there to await his return, but had instead gone ... somewhere else, he wasn't sure where. A full-on, verbal abuse, controlling behaviour, terrorise-your-woman tirade it was, complete with every kind of bitch/whore/youfuckingslag/etc language and every coercive control technique you've ever heard about, ("I'm going to smash your face in"/ "I'm throwing you out tomorrow"/"you have NO rights, you do what I tell you"/ "you're getting in bed with him now, aren't you, I know you, you slag" "you worthless cow" etc etc etc.) It went on for more than an hour. I was ITCHING and ACHING to throw open my window and scream abuse back at him - or perhaps give him a firmly worded reminder that women do not exist for his convenience and that he's being really unpleasant to his partner. I have 100% confidence that some DV would have followed, wherever and whenever he found her. But I was home alone. I toyed with calling the police. But I didn't do anything. Because he was drunk. Because he's just some stranger after all. Because I didn't want him to break my window. Because he's a man.

right or wrong? what would you have done? what should I have done? Nobody got hit, it was 'just verbals', and drunk people of any gender are often unbearable, aggressive and loud. He was the one out of order. So why do I feel like the failure for not dealing with the situation right?

I'd have smacked him. Or at least I would have until recently, having learned from people on here that thay migh not be the best thing for the woman. Now, I'm not sure. Hate to say it, but I'd probably still have smacked him.

 

[mango5]

what would you have done? what should I have done? Nobody got hit, it was 'just verbals', and drunk people of any gender are often unbearable, aggressive and loud. He was the one out of order. So why do I feel like the failure for not dealing with the situation right?

Meant to reply to this earlier. There's no right or wrong thing you should have done. I would not have intervened directly. I am afraid of aggression.

As for the final question, see my recent self-quote.

 

[Mrs Miggins]

My recent experience of this thread is causing me to feel really angry. Really angry about the horrible stories that have been shared. Really angry on behalf of the women who have suffered them and also the decent men who would not behave like that. It's fucking shit. It's a section of men who....I don't know what they are. They have no respect for other humans and they take it out on women. These men also ruin everything for the men who aren't like that.

My worst cases of sexual assault happened in my early 20s. The worst being the guy who got me in a headlock and tried to drag me into some bushes to do whatever it was he wanted to do. Thankfully I kicked him in the shins and I got away but this was in Munich when I was working in a beer garden spending my time having fun and flirty chats with the punters. After this man assaulted me, I did not want to talk to any of the men at the beer garden any more. It ruined everything. This story is nothing compared to what others have shared but it still shapes me and it still sucks.

 

[Mrs Miggins]

And I can say "not all men" as much as I like but as a woman, I have a litany of sexual assault throughout my entire life that men just do not experience.

Let's start with the man who was pushing his erection into my backside at a gig. I couldn't believe this was happening. I must have been imagining it. I was 19.

The man at a party who would not leave the bathroom because he wanted to see me pee. I think I was 17 then.

The man who walked up to me in the street, grabbed me by the back of the neck and attempted to snog me. I kicked that motherfucker in the shins as well and then felt bad about "causing a scene".

 

[Mrs Miggins]

I'm going to have to watch some Rupaul's Drag Race now to calm down.

 

[8ball]

Worth repeating.

Or that on one occasion you just ran out of that physical and mental energy.
I *think* most of the women’s stories here are coming from posters around my age group. Ish.
I really hope in 20 years we don’t have another cohort recounting a batch of similar stories.

 

[8ball]

I'm going to have to watch some Rupaul's Drag Race now to calm down.

I’d join you, but my spider sense tells me there won’t be many scenes of custom cars with ludicrously oversized engines exploding in dramatic fashion.