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Feminism- experiences of man-whispering and the refusal to do so...

What I find really difficult are the 'on the fence friends' not wanting to take sides and by doing so not having our friends back and supporting that abusive behaviour.

Yes agreed, that's basically being complicit in the abuse. I know of two women off the top of my head whose social group has seen them being beaten up by their partners (one was beaten up in the pub, one in her living room during a gathering) and done nothing, continued to socialise with the man. For the record, my friend knows exactly where I stand and I have offered her my home, my help and my advice when she's spoken to me about it. She's still very much in that place where she'll only talk to me about it when it's at crisis point and the rest of the time pretends everything is perfect. It's really difficult to know how to support your friends in that state but she knows very well that I am not on the fence.
 
What I find really difficult are the 'on the fence friends' not wanting to take sides and by doing so not having our friends back and supporting that abusive behaviour.
I am sick of the silence around this stuff, that support has to be offered in secret. Especially when you see someone starting a new relationship with a known abuser. Oh, the relief if/when it ends quickly... And the dread and self-loathing when it doesn't.... The question 'why did none of us say anything' is very hard to live with :(
 
I am sick of the silence around this stuff, that support has to be offered in secret. Especially when you see someone starting a new relationship with a known abuser. Oh, the relief if/when it ends quickly... And the dread and self-loathing when it doesn't.... The question 'why did none of us say anything' is very hard to live with :(
We're so conditioned not to say anything. The blame game is drilled into us. I remember my mother telling me not to comment on friend's relationships, because when they get back together you'll be blamed for telling the truth. I had a friend do the same to me when I was in an abusive relationship. I was aware I was ignoring her, aware she was telling me the truth to get out. But, still I couldn't, wouldn't. It's a very complicated situation.
 
What I find really difficult are the 'on the fence friends' not wanting to take sides
IME they often aren't even really on the fence. They remain 'neutral' because it's easier not to make a fuss, despite knowing full well what the abuser is and does.

Many years ago, my then girlfriend was assaulted - no-one disbelieved us: indeed, the guy who assaulted her became known as 'the night stalker' among the wider circle of friends because of his sinister behaviour around women. Yet when I made it known we didn't want to be around him, it was us who were dropped. For the night stalker. cause it was easier than calling him out, or even just not calling him.
 
Oh SheilaNaGig I am so sorry this happened to you, such a strong and wise person.

Without wishing to trivialise, recent posts on this and related threads have made me wonder about online vs offline dynamics.
Are women generally less assertive and 'nicer' in real life than online (especially pseudonymous places like Urban) because of lower risks of male aggression? The fear is usually less visceral because we literally cannot be physically threatened?
 
One of older brothers once invited me around to speak to his then girlfriend to convince her of how hard he was trying, that he was doing well in counselling and that she shouldn't leave him for being an abusive cunt.

I took her out for a walk and told her straight. She wasn't the first and wouldn't be the last, yes I am his sister and because of that I know he will never ever fucking change. As a woman I refused to lie for him and told her to leave as soon as she could. I looked her in the eye, she was shocked but then grateful and relieved. She just needed to hear it and know she wasn't going mad. It was even more powerful coming from me.

We got back to the flat afterwards, made nice with my brother, ate dinner and then I went home. I gave her a hug at the door and wished her luck.

She left while he was out seeing friends 3 days later. I was very proud of her, and myself.

When my brother told me about her leaving I told him what I had done. He never tried that fucking shit with me again.

I've never talked about my experiences of having a domestically violent sibling before because I am really bloody ashamed of this about him and his behaviour in relationships. He is classic too...utterly charming, intelligent and good looking, but also a control freak, a manipulative abusive cunt.
 
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Oh SheilaNaGig I am so sorry this happened to you, such a strong and wise person.

Without wishing to trivialise, recent posts on this and related threads have made me wonder about online vs offline dynamics.
Are women generally less assertive and 'nicer' in real life than online (especially pseudonymous places like Urban) because of lower risks of male aggression? The fear is usually less visceral because we literally cannot be physically threatened?

I think it's a bit of 2 things.

People are generally less argumentative in person. I've met people who are constantly rude to me on here and then couldn't have been less confrontational irl.
People are also unable to reach through the screen and beat you up so the distance is safety.

Generally speaking, in everyday dealings with people (man or woman) I am sure we are doing unconscious risk assessments depending on the situation.
 
Oh SheilaNaGig I am so sorry this happened to you, such a strong and wise person.

Without wishing to trivialise, recent posts on this and related threads have made me wonder about online vs offline dynamics.
Are women generally less assertive and 'nicer' in real life than online (especially pseudonymous places like Urban) because of lower risks of male aggression? The fear is usually less visceral because we literally cannot be physically threatened?

Absolutely. I can be a really outspoken bitch online, and it's quite a nice release.

In real life, I tend to hold my tongue and keep my head down, or if I do have a point to make I don't do it abruptly.

The nice thing about online is that I can get out what's in my head without fearing a beating for saying the "wrong" thing.

And I can take name calling online.

I was bullied through the whole school system so I've got used to laughing at clique think and name calling (or smearing). Most women have suffered worse so online is a cynch.

To be honest, online, I find men doing their whole cliquey bullshit amusing and pitiful in equal measures.

Offline it is pitiful, but I will never find it amusing becuase standing up for yourself is dangerous and I wouldn't take that risk. So yes. You suck up and be "nice" even when you don't want to be.

Men who behave in that way online - aggressive and smeary and condescending - (and I can think of a few names) I would actively avoid in real life because that sort of bullying tactic is a HUGE red flag for me.
 
Last night I refused to man whisper. I now have cuts on one hand and bruises along the opposite arm. Three hour's sleep. Exhausted.

I rose up. I spoke up. I answered back. I spoke my mind.

I regret it all.

Fuck. :(
Hope you're ok, safe and supported.

I don't really look in on this thread but misread a thread title this time.
 
I have a friend that despite having left an abusive marriage is still regularly stalked, car keyed etc .....anyway the husband is dead to me .....as soon as I found out what had been going on and is still occurring. What I find really difficult are the 'on the fence friends' not wanting to take sides and by doing so not having our friends back and supporting that abusive behaviour.

However I agree that in a situation where the abused partner is still living with the perpetrator one has to be very cautious.
I had an experience recently where I bumped into the boyfriend of someone I barely know. She told me a few years back while drunk that he hits her. Of course that made me loathe him instantly...but the awkward bit is if I was off to him, what if he takes it out on her? Correctly assuming that ive heard some bad shit about him. So I let this absolute bastard sit at our table moaning about how hard his life is while he's at the pub and she's at home doing everything. :mad:
 
One of older brothers once invited me around to speak to his then girlfriend to convince her of how hard he was trying, that he was doing well in counselling and that she shouldn't leave him for being an abusive cunt.

I took her out for a walk and told her straight. She wasn't the first and wouldn't be the last, yes I am his sister and because of that I know he will never ever fucking change. As a woman I refused to lie for him and told her to leave as soon as she could. I looked her in the eye, she was shocked but then grateful and relieved. She just needed to hear it and know she wasn't going mad. It was even more powerful coming from me.

We got back to the flat afterwards, made nice with my brother, ate dinner and then I went home. I gave her a hug at the door and wished her luck.

She left while he was out seeing friends 3 days later. I was very proud of her, and myself.

When my brother told me about her leaving I told him what I had done. He never tried that fucking shit with me again.

I've never talked about my experiences of having a domestically violent sibling before because I am really bloody ashamed of this about him and his behaviour in relationships. He is classic too...utterly charming, intelligent and good looking, but also a control freak, a manipulative abusive cunt.
Good on you seriously
 
One of older brothers once invited me around to speak to his then girlfriend to convince her of how hard he was trying, that he was doing well in counselling and that she shouldn't leave him for being an abusive cunt.

I took her out for a walk and told her straight. She wasn't the first and wouldn't be the last, yes I am his sister and because of that I know he will never ever fucking change. As a woman I refused to lie for him and told her to leave as soon as she could. I looked her in the eye, she was shocked but then grateful and relieved. She just needed to hear it and know she wasn't going mad. It was even more powerful coming from me.

We got back to the flat afterwards, made nice with my brother, ate dinner and then I went home. I gave her a hug at the door and wished her luck.

She left while he was out seeing friends 3 days later. I was very proud of her, and myself.

When my brother told me about her leaving I told him what I had done. He never tried that fucking shit with me again.

I've never talked about my experiences of having a domestically violent sibling before because I am really bloody ashamed of this about him and his behaviour in relationships. He is classic too...utterly charming, intelligent and good looking, but also a control freak, a manipulative abusive cunt.
Holy fucking shit you are an insanely hardcore woman of principle :eek: :thumbs:
 
For me with my ex, what I want above everything is for people around him to tell him ‘stop, this isn’t okay’. But no one does.

His parents and girlfriend sat next to him for over 9 months of child protection hearings. No one sat next to me. The men who are our mutual friends still go out with him (the women- my friends- don’t). They still drink with a man who when drunk beats his wife and sons. Not heresay. Actually evidenced by police and social services and bruises, they ask me if we’re alright but they still go. I just do not understand it :confused:

The only conclusion of all this is that at base, it’s socially acceptable to be a pisshead who occasionally loses their temper and lashes out. That’s the bottom line :confused:
 
People are very unwilling to accept things which challenge their basic idea of how somebody is - cognitive dissonance and all that. In the case of DV there are all sorts of myths that people fall back on to avoid confronting the facts, but even when they don't believe those, they still don't want to confront things and if they can all tacitly get away with behaving like nothing's changed they will.

I kind of half get why but I still can't quite sympathise. I remember hearing about a friend of a friend who had stabbed her boyfriend, and there was no indication that it was self defence or anything, she was drunk and fucked up and stabbed him. (Non-fatally, and I don't say this out of some "oh women do this too" motivation, it's just my experience.) Everyone pretended like nothing had happened at all and I just couldn't go with it. Luckily I never actually met them again or I don't think I could have complied with that.
 
I've never talked about my experiences of having a domestically violent sibling before because I am really bloody ashamed of this about him and his behaviour in relationships. He is classic too...utterly charming, intelligent and good looking, but also a control freak, a manipulative abusive cunt.

Liked in sympathy only, because I've been in these shoes as well (not siblings, but other close male relatives) and had more sobbed-on shoulders than I could count, and held to the same line you did (I controlled myself and didn't go with my first reaction to go fight the guilty men...) - by refusing to lie for them, at the very least. It's horrible having to tread the tightrope, to bite down on your instinct to shout "just leave him RIGHT NOW!" and to not seem 'embittered' or 'crazy' (and to have at least some prospect of the family meeting up again without killing each other) ... but not to cover up for or excuse abuse either. It must be even harder for those who're really close to and dependent on those abusive male relatives, too (I didn't get on with mine anyway, so was mentally completely prepared to just throw the whole man away, not torn about 'losing the support of my brother' or what have you) - it must be very much harder still if the relationship between male and female siblings/cousins/stepsiblings/whatever is warm and close and supportive.

But no matter who they are - DV and abuse are DV and abuse and nobody should be making excuses for them. It's tough to do.
 
As a woman I refused to lie for him and told her to leave as soon as she could. I looked her in the eye, she was shocked but then grateful and relieved. She just needed to hear it and know she wasn't going mad.
I've done this once, well over a decade ago. He was a mate and I was staying with them. She responded in the the same way as your brother's girlfriend but I don't know how things turned out.
I'm sorry I've not done it since. I think it's because the fallout from that one would have been minimal and more recently I feared losing friends ... Women friends who knew the score and made it clear they would have shunned me not him. I really don't know what I would do if/when the situation arises again. :(
 
Holy fucking shit you are an insanely hardcore woman of principle :eek: :thumbs:
I seriously didn't know what else to do. It was the weirdest situation and I just reached for the right thing to do. Imagine, I hadn't even met her before that. She was a really sweet and honest woman. She was so scared and intimidated by the situation. She thought I was taking her out to convince her to stay. How fucking dare he do that to her and me.Fucking hell. :mad::(

I was so angry with him...just thinking about it now I am still angry at him for that and all the other times in our lives that he has made me feel so ashamed to be his sister because he is an domestic abuser.
 
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I've done this once, well over a decade ago. He was a mate and I was staying with them. She responded in the the same way as your brother's girlfriend but I don't know how things turned out.
I'm sorry I've not done it since. I think it's because the fallout from that one would have been minimal and more recently I feared losing friends ... Women friends who knew the score and made it clear they would have shunned me not him. I really don't know what I would do if/when the situation arises again. :(

Arghhhhhhhhhhh!!!! :(

On the friend's thing. One of my close friends as a teen/early twenties was getting battered regularly by her bloke who was, because of his connection to her all of our friends.

I used to hide her in my mum's house and he'd come looking for her and I had to lie and say she wasn't there...I always thought he knew I was lying.

She stayed with him...Myself and others spent less and less time around them as it was too painful. She convinced me to go home with her for some food one evening saying he was out. He was out but then came home with some arsehole who I know had robbed and raped another friend 6 months previously. I kinda froze in shock...robber/rapist got totally didgey when he saw me...he knew I knew, then he started creating a scene, telling my friend's abusive partner how he was never visiting again as the 'females in your house are too stush and rude'...he basically wound him up into a frenzy then left.

Much slamming doors and ranting...then calling my mate into the kitchen to verbally assault her, then dragging her by her hair into the bathroom to beat her up. He wrapped her long hair around his hands, I could not get him off...everytime I tried he dragged her some more and kicked her. I begged and pleaded with him until he let her go...well he unwrapped his hands from her hair and threw her against the bath.

We sat in the bathroom together crying, in shock and exhausted...we could hear him in the kitchen slamming about and calling us names. I steeled myself for some man whispering...I went out of the bathroom into the living room to get my cigarettes...he saw me from the kitchen and shouted 'where the fuck are you going?' I looked back at him and then instinctively run across the room away from the door. I felt something hit my calf and looked down behind me to see a knife on the floor...the bastard had thrown a knife at me.

Luckily it only caught my calf and just nicked the skin...I lost my shit...I was so scared but went mental, we argued, he shoved me, at one point me and my friend were fighting with him...I don't remember a great deal after that apart from screaming, crying, man whispering, him softening etc...but I do know my mate slept at my house that night, with his permission of course. She went home the next day. I didn't want her to go but she did. She went on to have a child with him and I know the beatings never stopped despite the way that they always put a united front on when with friends or family. It was like a horrible game.

Many years later another friend asked me if I'd seen the local paper...I checked it out online...he got a hefty prison term for nearly killing another partner.
 
Statistically I must know some domestic abusers. But I don’t know of any (iyswim). But I must do.

I know someone who is an absolute cunt to women (sleeps around etc) but I don’t think he’s violent, just selfish. I know of two relationships where I have been told the woman is violent. I know a few where the emotional or financial dynamic sets my teeth on edge.
 
Ufff... I've had to pour myself a large one :D:mad::(:)...There are so many other experiences I could talk about with different people, different scenarios, different ages. I've opened a little door that I manage mostly to keep closed in my life by sniffing these fuckers out early on and having firm boundaries. This stuff really has marked me though tbh.

I fucking hate the way that myself and others have been so brutalised and then insulted by those who expect us to soothe their pathetic egos, over and over again. That has happened to me as a woman repeatedly and consistently since birth, mostly because I am a woman.
 
Fucking hell SheilaNaGig :mad: Every time I go round there and he's there I have to make nice, because if I don't it puts her in danger. But I still feel like a cunt.
Years ago, a friend was in a relationship with an abusive BF. I never said anything to him directly (I rarely used to see him) but it was pretty clear what I thought of him -- I'd meet up with her, she'd tell me things he'd said or done and I'd be 'WTF?' and she'd go home emboldened. Well for a bit anyway, until he hit her again.

All it meant was that he stopped her seeing me. It probably would've been better for her if I'd been more considered in my approach so at least she'd have had someone there when she needed them. (They moved, changed phone numbers and all that and we lost touch for years.) I was 19 or something at the time though and didn't really know what to do. Not sure I'd be able to pretend even now though guess I'd probably try to for the sake of maintaining contact. :(
 
One of older brothers once invited me around to speak to his then girlfriend to convince her of how hard he was trying, that he was doing well in counselling and that she shouldn't leave him for being an abusive cunt.

I took her out for a walk and told her straight. She wasn't the first and wouldn't be the last, yes I am his sister and because of that I know he will never ever fucking change. As a woman I refused to lie for him and told her to leave as soon as she could. I looked her in the eye, she was shocked but then grateful and relieved. She just needed to hear it and know she wasn't going mad. It was even more powerful coming from me.

We got back to the flat afterwards, made nice with my brother, ate dinner and then I went home. I gave her a hug at the door and wished her luck.

She left while he was out seeing friends 3 days later. I was very proud of her, and myself.

When my brother told me about her leaving I told him what I had done. He never tried that fucking shit with me again.

I've never talked about my experiences of having a domestically violent sibling before because I am really bloody ashamed of this about him and his behaviour in relationships. He is classic too...utterly charming, intelligent and good looking, but also a control freak, a manipulative abusive cunt.

Wow.
Total respect for that.
 
I thought I had my eyes open on this but the experiences talked about in this thread have made me realise this stuff is both more common and even more fucked up than I had imagined. All I can say is that the one time in my life I came across evidence of it, I both shunned the guy and told as many people as I could to shun him too. I don’t even know if that was the right thing to do, but the revulsion made it instinctual. Now I’m wondering what I should do to sniff these incidences out rather than avoid them.
 
I've been lucky compared to some as I've only been hit by men 2-3 times in my life. One was recently though. I have only told a few people about it.
I disagreed with a guy who was arguing with me while also trying to come on to me and completely out of the blue he slapped me hard across the face. We we're at his house as a party was going on. But nobody saw it. I was really shocked but I reacted quickly and slapped him back hard. He was drunk (as was I tbf) so he fell over and pulled me over with him. Someone saw that and so must have thought we were messing around. I tried to ring myself a taxi but the main companies refused to come to the address so I ended up having to stay the night as I didn't fancy trying to walk 8 miles home partly on a pretty spooky bit of motorway. I was upset and my stomach was in knots so I proceeded to throw up at regular intervals for the rest of the night, which luckily put him off trying too hard to get off with me. Yep he still thought he was in with a chance and he did still try. Forcefully grabbing me and pulling me onto the bed. I do something for safety when I wear a skirt out as I usually live in jeans. I wear knickers, tights and a pair of tight shorts over the top. God that feels weird to type out. But it makes it very hard for a guy to get me naked, even with force and has saved me a few times.
The next day the guy gave me and my friend a lift home and acted like nothing had happened. He was chatty and cheery. I Just stared out of the car window waiting for it to be over. I've not talked to him since and am avoiding places where he might be and I'm losing touch with mutual friends. They all know he's a dick but won't ever ditch him.

I wish I'd done more than slap him tbf. I wish I'd given him bruises he'd have to explain to people but I'm not a fighter or particularly violent so wouldn't have taken pleasure in that and nor would it have felt fair at the time. But argh fuck 'fair' and fuck being reasonable with these guys :(
 
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