Feminism- experiences of man-whispering and the refusal to do so...
- Thread starter Treacle Toes
- Start date
ice-is-forming
With dignified ease and grace..
Glitter
Goddess of rock!
Lets just think about this for a minute.
These girls were 11. 11, and this was necessary.
I went to see Metallica on Tuesday in Manchester. I was staying at my Mum’s and had to get the Metrolink back. The tram stop is probs a 40 minute walk from Mum’s and buses are sporadic. I intended to get off at Eccles, either walk back (unlikely as I’m lazy) or walk to a taxi place and get back.
Some guy started talking to me on the tram. I was sitting reading (Kindle in handbag) but quite happy to chat really. He got off before me and said he was getting on his bike home.
Then it occurred to me I’d told him where I was getting off, I know that station is relatively deserted and I don’t actually know where the nearest taxi place is. My phone was dead (I had considered ringing my Dad, despite being 40 years old) and I was getting really scared. I contemplated getting off a stop earlier, then realised that was even more fucking stupid as I had no idea what was there and think there was nothing.
Anyway, it was fine. I got off the tram and straight into a black cab. I’m sure the man I was talking to was fine but I have no fucking idea.
Do blokes EVER think like this? On what should have been a mundane journey?
krtek a houby
Merry Xmas!
The average wanker would probably try to run a mile, with the threat of mass exposure - his tiny junk going viral, etc. But that's guesswork. It's the thought of these tossers getting away with being a menace to others that rankles. And those who stand by, without trying to intervene. Are they that engrossed in their phones or are they just scared to get involved?
Back to the kind of men who get off on harassment. In Japan we have public transport gropers - chikan. This story did the rounds recently over here and it could probably lead to legal action for the tripper but there's something quite satisfactory about it. He clearly wasn't scared of getting involved.
Suspected chikan tripped up at Akabane Station | TokyoReporter
As for hats etc, I can only speak for myself but I got harassed often - obvs not on the scale that women get it - when living in London. I'm so not an alpha/macho male and have a penchant for garish attire
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
To be honest, yeah, I'm surprised (well, shocked or horrified) that this shit is so common.
At least, that was my first response.
But reading Glitter's post and question got me thinking.
That story resonated with me, as, yeah , I've often thought like that.
It's not the same.
But...
...as a man I've grown up learning strategies to deal with the threat of violence too.
The fear or threat of fights, of muggings etc.
I've done, still do, the "keys in hand". The avoiding eye contact, the changing routes to avoid drunken or intimidating men.
I've done the opposite too. Made myself appear intimidating, not a soft target, changing my posture, my pace, the look in my eyes...
It's not the same.
...and it doesn't stop me being shocked and horrified by your stories.
Mrs Miggins
It’s all happening tomorrow
Manter
Lunch Mob
The average wanker would. But it’s entirely possible one wouldn’t, or would escalate. We can’t assume that being righteous makes us safe.The average wanker would probably try to run a mile, with the threat of mass exposure - his tiny junk going viral, etc. But that's guesswork. It's the thought of these tossers getting away with being a menace to others that rankles. And those who stand by, without trying to intervene. Are they that engrossed in their phones or are they just scared to get involved?
Back to the kind of men who get off on harassment. In Japan we have public transport gropers - chikan. This story did the rounds recently over here and it could probably lead to legal action for the tripper but there's something quite satisfactory about it. He clearly wasn't scared of getting involved.
Suspected chikan tripped up at Akabane Station | TokyoReporter
As for hats etc, I can only speak for myself but I got harassed often - obvs not on the scale that women get it - when living in London. I'm so not an alpha/macho male and have a penchant for garish attire
And even rescuers- an Australian guy rescued me from a man who was following me round J’maa al Fnaa shoving his hand between my legs. He walked me back to where I was staying; half way there the conversation changed and he put his arm round my shoulder, hand straying to my breast. Fortunately we were nearly there, there were people around the doorway, I could run in.... but we can never assume we are safe, that no one will take advantage, that people will respond in a logical way
Baronage-Phase
Well-Known Member
Glitter Your post really shows what it is like in my experience.
I live about .25 km from a shop. If I have to go there at night.. say after 9...I wont walk.
There's only one reason for that. It's not that I am afraid of women or children. It is 100% wariness of meeting some man or men who will try some shit or say something that unsettles me or worse. I'm not even thinking robbery. It is an inbuilt fear of being assaulted or intimidated or just even bothered by some stranger(s) who think(s) its perfectly ok to strike up a conversation because it's dark and they're waiting for their takeaway meal and I'm a woman. It's never a normal conversation either.. I know I'm being sized up...like a lump of meat.
When it has happened, I'll put on my default dont fuck with me face. And given maybe a one word answer I've found myself taking out my phone to have fake phone calls just to avoid the person trying to chat to me.
I live about .25 km from a shop. If I have to go there at night.. say after 9...I wont walk.
There's only one reason for that. It's not that I am afraid of women or children. It is 100% wariness of meeting some man or men who will try some shit or say something that unsettles me or worse. I'm not even thinking robbery. It is an inbuilt fear of being assaulted or intimidated or just even bothered by some stranger(s) who think(s) its perfectly ok to strike up a conversation because it's dark and they're waiting for their takeaway meal and I'm a woman. It's never a normal conversation either.. I know I'm being sized up...like a lump of meat.
When it has happened, I'll put on my default dont fuck with me face. And given maybe a one word answer I've found myself taking out my phone to have fake phone calls just to avoid the person trying to chat to me.
polly
Well-Known Member
Yes - I fear for my son as much as I fear for my daughter. For different reasons, but the source is the same. People tend to get a bit upset when I say it here but it's male violence. I listen to the radio a lot and when the news comes on it's like a list of terrible things that men have done, to women, children and other men. I realise that it's a minority of you and that the rest of you suffer, from their actions as well as by association. I guess that if we accept that male violence is nurtured and fed by patriarchal expectations, it's so important that we continue to unpick all the other stuff that comes from a patriarchal set up, as benign as it might feel - I really believe that tackling - for example - the ideas bound up in chivalry, will help lead to an environment where we feel able to name and call out male violence.
Dunno. Maybe I shouldn't post before breakfast
neonwilderness
What would Badgers do?
Similarly I often find myself going out of my way not to appear intimidating to certain people. I walk fairly fast so I’m quite conscious not to suddenly appear behind someone and have to try and squeeze past them on a narrow street, or change my route so it doesn’t look like I’m following them.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Yeah. That too.
It's quite hard trying appear intimidating to some people (men) whilst at the same time not intimidating to others (women).
neonwilderness
What would Badgers do?
Yep, I’d probably extend the last bit to some kids and older people too.
I’m sure anyone who’s met me wouldn’t call me intimidating (I hope
), but I suppose it’s natural for people to be wary of someone they don’t know getting too close.SheilaNaGig
Break requested
I tend to call them out, shame them publicly. Like the time I was sat on the bus and a man was rubbing his erect cock against my shoulder. I said loudly "Stop rubbing your erection against my shoulder". It was a crowded bus, everyone turned to look and I pointed at him. Only then did I notice that his date /girlfriend was stood beside him.
The time a man grabbed my bum on the escalator so turned and looked directly at him and said loudly "Don't touch my arse " and then at the top of the escalator I pointed at him and spoke loudly enough for others to hear "That man touched me on my bum". He tried to go through the denial bullshit but I know what happened and I wasn't backing down. He blushed scarlet and started to go down the escalator and I stood and pointed at him and said "That man touches women he doesn't know". Everyone was looking at him.
The pointing allows me to identify them and keep my distance.
I am so sick of this bullshit.
krtek a houby
Merry Xmas!
gentlegreen
I hummus, therefore I am ...
Hopefully she told her mates ...
polly
Well-Known Member
Fuck
Violence to other men under the guise of chivalry and protecting women is pretty common, I think? One of my earliest memories of being terrified by violence was coming home from school and seeing one man standing over another, who was lying in the middle of the road, kicking him repeatedly in the head. He was yelling 'how dare you talk to a woman in church like that?' My mum stopped and just stood there, and the attacker sort of gave up and wandered off. The other man got up and said to my mum, 'I've never seen him before in my life, don't go to church' etc
Just an excuse to unleash violence on him, and one that might make people pause because it's ostensibly in the defence of a fragile flower of a woman. A woman in church too! Plot twist: the attacker was a girl in my class's uncle, and it turned out later that he battered her aunt so badly she needed facial reconstruction and had to change her name after she left him so he couldn't track her down A real hero to womankind. This is the kind of thing I was alluding to earlier: the idea that women need saving from men through violence just reinforces the dynamic of strong, powerful man vs weak, powerless woman, and leaves us at the mercy and whim of white knights. Plus lots of innocent men get kickings
I'm so sorry all those things happened to you.
JudithB
Well-Known Member
I have embraced this fully
spanglechick
High Empress of Dressing Up
Am not surprised men also have to man whisper.
The problem is violence, and violence is overwhelmingly a male behaviour.
The problem is violence, and violence is overwhelmingly a male behaviour.
friendofdorothy
Solidarity against neoliberalism!
Violence of all types seems to be more common amongst men. I'm not used to reading stats - can someone else look at the numbers?
The nature of violent crime in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics
I have noticed that the papers often cover acts of violence by women, probably because it is rarer / more shocking.
I was over 30 before I encountered any violence /controlling behaviour at the hands of a woman, I was so naive I thought women didn't do that, very disappointed to discover they did.
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
I was raised on female violence, from my mother among others, and I know among my peers I wasn't alone. I'm not talking about some formal "a smacked bottom", I'm talking about daily, casual lashing out at heads and faces for countless tiny infractions. My mother was way, way more likely to hit me than my father (who actually cried the one time he smacked me).
Anyway I think female violence towards adults is considerably less common than female violence towards kids. I still witness that in eg supermarkets with alarming frequency.
Off topic, but a response to the immediate subtopic above. Genuinely nervous to post on this thread tbh.
Anyway I think female violence towards adults is considerably less common than female violence towards kids. I still witness that in eg supermarkets with alarming frequency.
Off topic, but a response to the immediate subtopic above. Genuinely nervous to post on this thread tbh.
Treacle Toes
Time
Please don't be nervious. My mum beat some of us all the bloody time. She beat us girls. I can't remember my brothers ever copping it. She took out her impatience and frustration on us daily. She was also beaten as a child by her mother and she was emotionally and physically abused in her first marriage. My father never hit me once.
seventh bullet
sovietwave
My dad beat us all black and blue, because he could. We were boys (male but not a physical threat) and a woman (my mum).
ElizabethofYork
Old Crone
How horrible, seventh bullet. You must have traumatic childhood memories.
kalidarkone
Bringing YOU round.....
Same for me.
polly
Well-Known Member
I'm so sorry, mojo pixy and seventh bullet. And Rutita1 and kalidarkone - I wrote this ages ago and just saw your post. Only you girls?
I had a physically violent mum too. I wonder if she ever thinks about it, knowing that we don't hit our kids at all. It's just never talked about.
I had a physically violent mum too. I wonder if she ever thinks about it, knowing that we don't hit our kids at all. It's just never talked about.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
friendofdorothy
Solidarity against neoliberalism!
'liked' posts only in liking all of your honesty
perhaps a subject worthy of its on own thread?
perhaps a subject worthy of its on own thread?
seventh bullet
sovietwave
With environmental working class stresses and other forms of abuse (which don't discriminate along class lines) in the family and out I became a very angry young man. Took years to unravel it all safely (for myself and others), it was internalised and expressed via self-injurous and at one point suicidal behaviour, but also outward as emotional cruelty to loved ones male and female which I am truly ashamed of.
Patriarchy innit. Fucks you up. You're supposed to be a 'man' about what life throws at you, not a fuck up. Yet it was that bullshit which contributed to other males making me another casualty as it had them in some ways years before. It's gone what about men a little, hasn't it? As I still benefit from the P word while being affected by how it can damage and warp men, and what they're/we're capable of.
Patriarchy innit. Fucks you up. You're supposed to be a 'man' about what life throws at you, not a fuck up. Yet it was that bullshit which contributed to other males making me another casualty as it had them in some ways years before. It's gone what about men a little, hasn't it? As I still benefit from the P word while being affected by how it can damage and warp men, and what they're/we're capable of.
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