Feminism- experiences of man-whispering and the refusal to do so...

[RubyToogood]

I've often found when I've tried to talk to men about this stuff that the concept of unwanted sexual attention just doesn't compute. The idea that someone would approach you in the street for sex excites them.

They don't get the sense of threat.

They don't get the fact that mostly the kind of men who approach you do not remotely resemble anyone you might wish to get naked with. It's not even about attractiveness, it's just like wtf hell no.

 

[scifisam]

You said
"And while I’m on it- the delusion of men. There appears to be no ‘she’s out of my league’ filter, at all. On one level charming- maybe they really think it’s their sparkly personalities that matter? Maybe they think they have sparkly personalities?!"
That's what you said, and all the abuse in the world won't change that. But well done accusing me of being a rapist.
Anyway, fuck it. It's obvious what these threads are about.

Yeah, easy to change meaning by leaving out half a post, isn't it?

When it comes to men being interested in you, obviously most women prefer men they consider attractive. Most men also prefer women they're attracted to. The sea is also made of water, while we're stating the obvious. There's nothing wrong with, um, being attracted to people you consider attractive. BUT that wasn't what Manter was talking about. She was specifically talking about harassment, which you cut out of her post. Harassment isn't acceptable from men of any level of attractiveness.

 

[Pickman's model]

I've often found when I've tried to talk to men about this stuff that the concept of unwanted sexual attention just doesn't compute. The idea that someone would approach you in the street for sex excites them.

They don't get the sense of threat.

They don't get the fact that mostly the kind of men who approach you do not remotely resemble anyone you might wish to get naked with. It's not even about attractiveness, it's just like wtf hell no.

I have been propositioned thrice on the street, once by schoolgirls when I was 16 and twice by prostitutes. I found none of these encounters threatening, or that exciting, but rather bizarre and tawdry. However, I have seen women propositioned on the street and it's seemed to me a much less amicable affair, as has been described on this thread. The nearest I can put it into a male equivalent would be if other men started on you for no reason, doing the dance from what are you looking at to *smack*. The sort of pacific things you'd do to end the encounter without violence. Yeh it's not a perfect analogy, but the unwanted interference and potential difficulty in extricating yourself seem to me comparable

 

[Baronage-Phase]

I think it is (on some level)...and the expectations for women to be attractive as well as competent, especially in a public role, is still somewhat baked-in. This does tend to reinforce opinions that women should be primarily seen as decorative, but essentially lightweight appendages...whereas men are rarely given the heave-ho because their waistline has gone south and wrinkles are appearing. Women are simply too old - while men are praised for having gravitas and experience...and this imbalance is reflected and reinforced as just another unfairness (along with equal pay).

My daughter showed me her dating site...and we were a tad amazed at the number of male posts which emphasised stomachs, biceps, 6-packs and underpant bulges...so I am not at all sure how general commodification of the body under capitalism is affecting men...

The "perfect appearance" is sonething that has shocked me amongst young teens and kids.
Girls of 13 up arriving at school having spent hours doing their hair and makeup in order to look like someone on the cover of a magazine.

Boys are being effected too. But the pressure on them is to have 6 packs and be thin and fit.

Its extremely sad.

 

[Miss-Shelf]

Out of their league

I take this to mean a man approaching me when we visibly have nothing in common and all the signs are that we would not get on. Like my presentation as a female is all that is needed for him to be emboldened to approach. It reduces me to a basic version of myself. My probable female genitals. It bypasses anything about my thoughts, interests, style, beliefs

Rather than a competitive league where I think I'm better looking or other such value judgements

 

[mojo pixy]

I was just reading here, with interest, anger, shame and various other feelings on behalf of all of us who may well have indulged in behaviour that inspires these kinds of fear and defensiveness. I will go back to reading quietly, too, but on this subtopic I have something to add.

There were a few years around the millennium when because (I believe) of my shape/face, and the places I was spending time, and the people I was with and what I was doing, I was getting regularly propositioned by both men and women. I didn't like it, at all, and it had nothing to do with looks (maybe to do with drunken ugliness, a whole other kind of ugliness). It was to do with invading my space, unwanted touching, and the entitlement of someone who just doesn't understand why you would say 'no'.

Most men I've told this to laugh and call me mental. Which leaves me speechless. I no longer share this experience because the response I get bothers me too much. But here it seems relevant because I believe I do understand a little of what women seem to have to put up with. Shall I tag Saul Goodman ? Yeah why not.

Anyway that's all. Me reading again now.

EtA, forget the edit.

EtAA, no. Let's have it.

I hope this post doesn't mean points get taken more seriously by anyone reading because oh look a man agrees so it must be true. That would be shit, really shit. But shamefully, it does work that way with some men I do agree with what's being expressed by women in this thread, because what's being expressed is true. My own experience bears it out, is all I'm saying.

Fucking hell anyway.

 

[Poot]

I think I'm just going to say it. Usually I notice the 'out of their league' thing when it's a younger woman going about her business and an older man comes on to her or comments on her appearance or something, and it makes me a bit nauseous. I'm sure we've all seen it and some of us have been it.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Yes.

But the thing about "out of their league " isn't about looks. It's mostly about other stuff.

But the looks thing does need addressing too, separately.

...and it's bullshit to suggest that only men might 'feel' this...happens to women all the time too.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Women like you are the reason men don't post on these threads.

I am happily a woman that will tell you to fuck the fuckety fuck off. Then come back and fuck off some more. What an utter immature cock. You demand so much more from women and don't even acknowledge it, you then think you can insult and guilt trip. No. grow the fuck up.

 

[Treacle Toes]

My issue is that 'men' are being dragged through the mud. It's cunts that are the problem, not 'men', and there are as many women fall under the 'cunt' category as there are men.

Patriarchy as a historically inequitable and abusive institutionalised 'system' and it's influences/consequences are being dragged through the mud, not men.

 

[quimcunx]

Bare facts, if you want to talk about looks and presentation/style most people go out with people who are level ish with themselves. When a 25 year old woman, looking as fresh and good as she's ever likely to look, dressed to impress in whatever that means to her, walking down the street in the afternoon and a 45 year old alcoholic with BO lunges at her tits and propositions her would you not agree she is out of his league?

Or look at it another way, if she was your friend and said she agreed to go for a drink with him wouldnt you think no way, shes out of his league? You'd wonder how low her self esteem must be.

 

[wtfftw]

Yeah come on. We don't all having winning personalities either.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Yeah come on. We don't all having winning personalities either.

Exactly, whilst I acknowledge there is a horrible 'she's out of your league/punching above your weight' tendency within patriarchy it's nonsense to imagine that us women don't have similar worries.

The fact that it's the competitive, dog-eat-dog, be the alpha part of patriarchy that demands men experience this I can't fathom why we women are responsible, again.

 

[Espresso]

I'm actually a handsome bastard who has no problem in that department, but thanks for confirming my suspicions.

Men, whether handsome or otherwise can and do approach women. Obvs. If the woman in question is interested she will intimate as such. If she is not, she will as well.

A proper and actual man can see the difference, regardless of how handsome he thinks he is. So such a man in receipt of a rebuff will bugger off.
In receipt of interest, a proper an actual man who wasn't raised by wolves will engage in conversation with said other person of the human race. Result: interest and all round yay!

Bastards, whether handsome or otherwise can and do approach women. Equally obvs. If the woman in question is interested she will intimate as such. If she is not, she will as well.

A bastard absolutely and wilfully cannot see the difference, regardless of how handsome he thinks he is. Obvs. (Well. Obviously to people who were not raised by wolves. Or dolphins. Or bononbos)
In receipt of a rebuff such a bastard will not bugger off. He will persist and persist and persist. He will make a nuisance of himself to the woman and when she absolutely makes it clear she's not interested will INSTANTLY change his opinion of her from being "Oooh, she's hot/nice/sexy/all round splendid" to "What a fucking slag" or, for added shite "Time of the month is it?" or for extra special added superduper lolz "Dyke" and or "Frigid bitch"
In receipt of interest a bastard will think "Aye aye, an easy bitch slag I can fuck. Woo hoo!"

 

[Santino]

Men, whether handsome or otherwise can and do approach women. Obvs. If the woman in question is interested she will intimate as such. If she is not, she will as well.

A proper and actual man can see the difference, regardless of how handsome he thinks he is. So such a man in receipt of a rebuff will bugger off.
In receipt of interest, a proper an actual man who wasn't raised by wolves will engage in conversation with said other person of the human race. Result: interest and all round yay!

Bastards, whether handsome or otherwise can and do approach women. Equally obvs. If the woman in question is interested she will intimate as such. If she is not, she will as well.

A bastard absolutely and wilfully cannot see the difference, regardless of how handsome he thinks he is. Obvs. (Well. Obviously to people who were not raised by wolves. Or dolphins. Or bononbos)
In receipt of a rebuff such a bastard will not bugger off. He will persist and persist and persist. He will make a nuisance of himself to the woman and when she absolutely makes it clear she's not interested will INSTANTLY change his opinion of her from being "Oooh, she's hot/nice/sexy/all round splendid" to "What a fucking slag" or, for added shite "Time of the month is it?" or for extra special added superduper lolz "Dyke" and or "Frigid bitch"
In receipt of interest a bastard will think "Aye aye, an easy bitch slag I can fuck. Woo hoo!"

I don't think the rhetoric of 'proper and actual men' is helpful here. There's nothing in the concept of being a man that means you're nice or decent. It's toxic.

 

[Espresso]

I don't think the rhetoric of 'proper and actual men' is helpful here. There's nothing in the concept of being a man that means you're nice or decent. It's toxic.

True.
I suppose that I must have been indulging in a bit of whispering. For the bastards among us.

 

[Miss-Shelf]

Earlier on this thread I was going to say I have not experienced attention from men in the street for many years. I walk very fast usually I think and look approachable perhaps

Or I block it out or something

And then walking home on the dark past the bus stop two older men said "hello young lady" I just ignored them
It wasn't dangerous, it probably wasnt sexual attention but it's the asking for attention from a woman that's so entitled and wrong. I wasn't scared and I'm not shook up. But in the context if this thread I was more aware than ever of how this low level intrusion is SO wrong and indicative of the power imbalance between men and women

No awareness of the woman's feelings that she might be anxious in the street at night, that she might be intimidated by two men

Its all about their entertainment, their power

Asserting their ownership of public space

 

[KatyF]

I've had this conversation about out of league etc before with a mate (male) when trying to explain how I didnt like men just approaching me in the street, or turning their cars round and just driving slowly next to me, or sitting with me uninvited in the pub and he honestly said 'oh you wouldn't mind if they were good looking'. Way to miss the actual point.

Also reading all this has made me realise some things about my some of my friends. I have one friend who everyone thinks it's hilarious that he's tried it on with all my female friends. I very much don't find it funny, I'm embarrassed. I've even said I'll have to stop inviting him to things and others are like no he doesn't mean anything, no one could be threatened by him. Well yes, yes they could and yes they have been.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

I was just reading here, with interest, anger, shame and various other feelings on behalf of all of us who may well have indulged in behaviour that inspires these kinds of fear and defensiveness. I will go back to reading quietly, too, but on this subtopic I have something to add.

There were a few years around the millennium when because (I believe) of my shape/face, and the places I was spending time, and the people I was with and what I was doing, I was getting regularly propositioned by both men and women. I didn't like it, at all, and it had nothing to do with looks (maybe to do with drunken ugliness, a whole other kind of ugliness). It was to do with invading my space, unwanted touching, and the entitlement of someone who just doesn't understand why you would say 'no'.

Most men I've told this to laugh and call me mental. Which leaves me speechless. I no longer share this experience because the response I get bothers me too much. But here it seems relevant because I believe I do understand a little of what women seem to have to put up with. Shall I tag Saul Goodman ? Yeah why not.

Anyway that's all. Me reading again now.

EtA, forget the edit.

EtAA, no. Let's have it.

I hope this post doesn't mean points get taken more seriously by anyone reading because oh look a man agrees so it must be true. That would be shit, really shit. But shamefully, it does work that way with some men I do agree with what's being expressed by women in this thread, because what's being expressed is true. My own experience bears it out, is all I'm saying.

Fucking hell anyway.

Horribly, I have to admit that I thought:

1- How dare he compare his brief experience to my lifelong normal.

2- Thank God a man has also had this experience and can express it in a way that other men might believe and understand it.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Earlier on this thread I was going to say I have not experienced attention from men in the street for many years. I walk very fast usually I think and look approachable perhaps

Or I block it out or something

And then walking home on the dark past the bus stop two older men said "hello young lady" I just ignored them
It wasn't dangerous, it probably wasnt sexual attention but it's the asking for attention from a woman that's so entitled and wrong. I wasn't scared and I'm not shook up. But in the context if this thread I was more aware than ever of how this low level intrusion is SO wrong and indicative of the power imbalance between men and women

No awareness of the woman's feelings that she might be anxious in the street at night, that she might be intimidated by two men

Its all about their entertainment, their power

Asserting their ownership of public space

Or just lost in thought, thinking of the song she's writing or the the lesson plan she needs to do, or her lover, or the funeral she's going to tomorrow. How many of those men who intrude quite readily and randomly on women would feel so free to interrupt a man?

 

[chilango]

Many years ago I was at a work thing. One of my colleagues was subject to some of this unwanted attention from some other guests in the hotel. She reported to one of our managers who replied with with the "you wouldn't have minded if they good looking line". On telling the rest of us everybody, men and women (and a pretty disparate bunch) not only found ways to support our colleague, but instantly denounced the manager as a "sleaze".

 

[krtek a houby]

I know when men have started wanking on public transport and I've moved away saying loudly 'there's a wanker here' the man has done the whole looking innocent 'she's mad' thing so everyone looks at me like I'm the problem.

Shit, that's horrible. If you can, take a picture (if it ever happens again). Easy to say, of course, as the victim can freeze in the situation. My sister and her friends were subjected to a wanker in public transport when they were young teens and they couldn't move. Just burst into tears and nobody came to ask if they were ok.

This thread is as deeply depressing as it is illuminating.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Shit, that's horrible. If you can, take a picture (if it ever happens again). Easy to say, of course, as the victim can freeze in the situation. My sister and her friends were subjected to a wanker in public transport when they were young teens and they couldn't move. Just burst into tears and nobody came to ask if they were ok.

This thread is as deeply depressing as it is illuminating.

I don't have a camera ( or that type of phone) but I'm not sure that taking a picture wouldn't be seen as too confrontational for the average wanker. Would that escalate a situation? I'd be interested what those versed in the art of whispering think of the idea of snapping pics of abusive men.

Unlikely to happen to me now - I've reached that magic age of near invisibilty, no one looks at women of a certain age. I walk around unnoticed, uncommented upon and unharrassed - this must be what it is like being a man. Unless I wear a nice hat and get complimented on for the hat by men and women - which is lovely.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

Ignore him. Let’s have a reasonable conversation as if that creature never happened

He is a human being.

 

[equationgirl]

I don't have a camera ( or that type of phone) but I'm not sure that taking a picture wouldn't be seen as too confrontational for the average wanker. Would that escalate a situation? I'd be interested what those versed in the art of whispering think of the idea of snapping pics of abusive men.

Unlikely to happen to me now - I've reached that magic age of near invisibilty, no one looks at women of a certain age. I walk around unnoticed, uncommented upon and unharrassed - this must be what it is like being a man. Unless I wear a nice hat and get complimented on for the hat by men and women - which is lovely.

You do have great hats, to be fair.

 

[friendofdorothy]

I have been propositioned thrice on the street, once by schoolgirls when I was 16 and twice by prostitutes. I found none of these encounters threatening, or that exciting, but rather bizarre and tawdry. However, I have seen women propositioned on the street and it's seemed to me a much less amicable affair, as has been described on this thread. The nearest I can put it into a male equivalent would be if other men started on you for no reason, doing the dance from what are you looking at to *smack*. The sort of pacific things you'd do to end the encounter without violence. Yeh it's not a perfect analogy, but the unwanted interference and potential difficulty in extricating yourself seem to me comparable

only 3 times in a whole lifetime? I'm a fat lesbian and when I was younger I think I've had short walks where its happend more than 3 times.

Then imagine what its like when that happens most weeks, for years on end. The accumulation of small events, the overall effect it has on us. I just don't think most men can imagine what that is like, how exhausting/ off putting / fucking annoying it is.

 

[friendofdorothy]

He is a human being.

a fucking annoying human being.

 

[friendofdorothy]

You do have great hats, to be fair.

thanks!

 

[equationgirl]

He is a human being.

He may be a human but he was saying some pretty vile and despicable things.

 

[mango5]

only 3 times in a whole lifetime? I'm a fat lesbian and when I was younger I think I've had short walks where its happend more than 3 times.

Then imagine what its like when that happens most weeks, for years on end. The accumulation of small events, the overall effect it has on us. I just don't think most men can imagine what that is like, how exhausting/ off putting / fucking annoying it is.

It probably happens to me weekly on average, some sort of inviting remark. Doesn't seem to matter if I'm stylish or scruffy.