Feminism- experiences of man-whispering and the refusal to do so...

[scifisam]

I noticed it changes how I respond to people in public. A bloke smiled at me in the street the other day and I absent mindedly smiled back (because I was thinking about getting him in time to pick up J and I’d just come back from Yorkshire and I just wan’t in London-mode). He then followed me and kept touching my arm and trying to get me to take my headphones off. I eventually had to snarl at him to make him go away.....


.... and I kicked myself for forgetting never to engage with men in public when I am alone. Rather than blame him for having that weird entitlement to women’s time and attention thing going on.

I once had an interesting conversation with my daughter (and one of her friends) about how to deal with this sort of thing. The upright stride, the careful blank expression with a slight smile, jog if you have the energy because it gives people less time to harass you, try to sit near another woman on public transport, keep your eyes away from people's faces so you don't make accidental eye contact, all the things I think most of us just do automatically.

J and her friend were at the time very conventionally pretty girls and the amount of hassle they got was immense. I took them out a lot. Sometimes met them after school, sometimes we'd meet at the tube, sometimes we were all out together and I went to the loo, whatever. There were lots of times they were out in public apparently without me and I got to see how people acted towards them.

It was striking how much sexual attention they got. I think it was similar when I was their age but we brushed it off, like you do, and that's more difficult to do with your child. Numerous times I'd come to meet them and see men trying to chat them up, them both being very obviously not into it (J's friend liked boys already, but on her own terms, and her body language was all clenched in, not responding at all positively to these sweaty adult men, not welcoming their attention at all), or I'd be slightly behind them on the road and men would catcall them, and men's eyes would go where they shouldn't. If you pay attention to where people look, women tend to look at faces, and most men do too. But there's a very large subset of men who default to the chest.

This was in year 7. They were 11. A couple of years later there was an evening where the girls in that friendship group actually talked to the female parents about this shit, like how to say no to men in a social setting, ways to be safe on public transport, that sort of thing, not just with me but with two of the other Mums. It was actually kinda fun.

We taught them man-whispering because it was better than teaching them about the morning after pill and AIDS tests or never letting them have any freedom.

Self-defence classes focus on holding keys in your hand and stuff like that, and that is helpful. But it's not where the defence starts.

 

[weepiper]

Liked in recognition of the truth, Sam, not that it happened to your child.

 

[Manter]

Absolutely scifisam ’that is not where the defence starts’

Very personal info coming up; I joke about why, when I was late teens/early 20s I covered myself up in long shapeless clothes and what was I thinking- did I think I was fat? I wish I was fat like that now- but actually I did it deliberately because I was tall and blonde and busty and I got *so* much unwanted and even dangerous attention I was just trying to disappear. At one point I had my timotei-style hair cropped off- not because I liked the look or anything, but because I was so sick of what people assume about women with swingy, shiny, blonde hair and big tits, even if they had covered every inch of skin in grungy layers.

I look back and feel really sorry for myself, that I wasn’t confident enough to face it down, and didn’t relax and enjoy my own body; and furious that the world was such that I didn’t feel able to.

It happens less now I’m older and fatter, obviously, but there are still so many assumptions that come with big tits and blonde. And you’re right about where people look: as I’ve got older, most men at least start talking to my face, but a quick flick of the eyes to my chest during the conversation is so common I barely notice it.

 

[Manter]

And while I’m on it- the delusion of men. There appears to be no ‘she’s out of my league’ filter, at all. On one level charming- maybe they really think it’s their sparkly personalities that matter? Maybe they think they have sparkly personalities?! - but so often a man will repeatedly come on to and harass a women with no ‘what would she see in me?’ thought process. It’s a sense of entitlement to women and their bodies and attention.

And viewers often collude in it. I had a boss who wrote me love poetry (my boyfriend described it as a cross between a Bon Jovi lyric and a mid year review) and was clearly gagging to sleep with me. Colleagues would ask if I was seeing him (and infer I had slept my way to a promotion) when I was 35 years younger, in a relationship with someone more my own age etc- why on earth would I have been seeing him?!

 

[trashpony]

I have a permanently curved spine from hunching over trying to hide my big breasts when I was young.

 

[Manter]

I have a permanently curved spine from hunching over trying to hide my big breasts when I was young.

My mum sent me to 5 years of ballet classes to make sure I stood up straight when it was obvious I was going to be tall. So despite boobs and embarrassment I am bolt upright due to years of being tapped in the small of the back

 

[polly]

Self-defence classes focus on holding keys in your hand and stuff like that, and that is helpful. But it's not where the defence starts.

I spent 18 months in Italy and quickly learned that the women there maintain an utter face of stone towards men they don't know. The catcalling and male nuisance there is much more intense than it is here, so I guess they just can't risk even a micro smile, but I learned a lot from them. No politeness, no smiling, no mercy However, on reflection, while the misogyny there is off the scale, on the street at least the men seem to take the rejection quite well and just move on to the next victim.

And while I’m on it- the delusion of men. There appears to be no ‘she’s out of my league’ filter, at all. On one level charming- maybe they really think it’s their sparkly personalities that matter? Maybe they think they have sparkly personalities?! - but so often a man will repeatedly come on to and harass a women with no ‘what would she see in me?’ thought process. It’s a sense of entitlement to women and their bodies and attention.

There is a lot of reinforcement, I think, of the idea that a man's physical unattractiveness and old age are not barriers to their being able to sleep with physically beautiful women. It's a woman's job to be pretty and an accessory to her man, and it's the man's job to provide materially etc. And you see soo many examples of women who are far more physically attractive than their men (I know it's shallow but I often balk when I meet female friends' partners), I suppose why wouldn't they try it on?

One thing I noticed when I was younger and was always baffled by was that the days when I felt really shit about myself - if I had a big spot or dirty hair or hated what I was wearing - were when I got the most male attention. Did anyone else notice this? Is it because walking tall and looking strong is off putting?

 

[neonwilderness]

I’m in a camping group on Facebook which I don’t post in but they’ve kicked loads of blokes out for harassing women. And turn down about 50% of blokes who want to join because it looks like they only want to join because they want to harass women.

I am in awe of how many women go up hills and camp on their own or with their kids.

I'm in the same group (or a different one with the same problem). There was an admin post about it earlier in the week and I think some people were still trying to argue the point in the comments

I'm happy hiking most anywhere and will wildcamp alone.

Same. It's sad to think that anyone would have any concerns about doing this

 

[Manter]

I spent 18 months in Italy and quickly learned that the women there maintain an utter face of stone towards men they don't know. The catcalling and male nuisance there is much more intense than it is here, so I guess they just can't risk even a micro smile, but I learned a lot from them. No politeness, no smiling, no mercy However, on reflection, while the misogyny there is off the scale, on the street at least the men seem to take the rejection quite well and just move on to the next victim.



There is a lot of reinforcement, I think, of the idea that a man's physical unattractiveness and old age are not barriers to their being able to sleep with physically beautiful women. It's a woman's job to be pretty and an accessory to her man, and it's the man's job to provide materially etc. And you see soo many examples of women who are far more physically attractive than their men (I know it's shallow but I often balk when I meet female friends' partners), I suppose why wouldn't they try it on?

One thing I noticed when I was younger and was always baffled by was that the days when I felt really shit about myself - if I had a big spot or dirty hair or hated what I was wearing - were when I got the most male attention. Did anyone else notice this? Is it because walking tall and looking strong is off putting?

I got most comments and lunges and so on when I first got engaged. Shiny new rock, loved up glow, ‘owned’ by another man- apparently irresistible

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

One thing I noticed when I was younger and was always baffled by was that the days when I felt really shit about myself - if I had a big spot or dirty hair or hated what I was wearing - were when I got the most male attention. Did anyone else notice this? Is it because walking tall and looking strong is off putting?

Yes, I've noticed this. I've been dressed in paint spattered clothing, paint in my hair, and literally had men from the neighborhood pull out lawn chairs to watch. Being covered in dirt and leaves seem to be an extra turn on. When I was mowing the lawn I had a guy stop, stare, and stick his hands down his pants to pleasure himself. That was some seriously creepy shit.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

 

[polly]

Yes, I've noticed this. I've been dressed in paint spattered clothing, paint in my hair, and literally had men from the neighborhood pull out lawn chairs to watch. Being covered in dirt and leaves seem to be an extra turn on. When I was mowing the lawn I had a guy stop, stare, and stick his hands down his pants to pleasure himself. That was some seriously creepy shit.

Fucking hell How did you deal with that??

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Fucking hell How did you deal with that??

I turned off the mower and went inside until he went away. I couldn't see calling the cops, even though that's the standard answer. My previous experience with the cops is that they'll ask what you did to encourage the behavior. I don't see them as improving the situation.

 

[friendofdorothy]

I turned off the mower and went inside until he went away. I couldn't see calling the cops, even though that's the standard answer. My previous experience with the cops is that they'll ask what you did to encourage the behavior. I don't see them as improving the situation.

could have got your biggest secateurs or shears out and strided purposefully in his direction making *snip*snip* movements.

 

[polly]

I turned off the mower and went inside until he went away. I couldn't see calling the cops, even though that's the standard answer. My previous experience with the cops is that they'll ask what you did to encourage the behavior. I don't see them as improving the situation.

Oh gosh that's just... So depressing. Sorry that happened to you. And probably a few others

could have got your biggest secateurs or shears out and strided purposefully in his direction making *snip*snip* movements.

 

[friendofdorothy]

I once had an interesting conversation with my daughter (and one of her friends) about how to deal with this sort of thing. The upright stride, the careful blank expression with a slight smile, jog if you have the energy because it gives people less time to harass you, try to sit near another woman on public transport, keep your eyes away from people's faces so you don't make accidental eye contact, all the things I think most of us just do automatically.

J and her friend were at the time very conventionally pretty girls and the amount of hassle they got was immense. I took them out a lot. Sometimes met them after school, sometimes we'd meet at the tube, sometimes we were all out together and I went to the loo, whatever. There were lots of times they were out in public apparently without me and I got to see how people acted towards them.

It was striking how much sexual attention they got. I think it was similar when I was their age but we brushed it off, like you do, and that's more difficult to do with your child. Numerous times I'd come to meet them and see men trying to chat them up, them both being very obviously not into it (J's friend liked boys already, but on her own terms, and her body language was all clenched in, not responding at all positively to these sweaty adult men, not welcoming their attention at all), or I'd be slightly behind them on the road and men would catcall them, and men's eyes would go where they shouldn't. If you pay attention to where people look, women tend to look at faces, and most men do too. But there's a very large subset of men who default to the chest.

This was in year 7. They were 11. A couple of years later there was an evening where the girls in that friendship group actually talked to the female parents about this shit, like how to say no to men in a social setting, ways to be safe on public transport, that sort of thing, not just with me but with two of the other Mums. It was actually kinda fun.

We taught them man-whispering because it was better than teaching them about the morning after pill and AIDS tests or never letting them have any freedom.

It is such a shame we have to teach young women to cope with inappropriate male behaviour, but I'm glad you are doing that.

Self-defence classes focus on holding keys in your hand and stuff like that, and that is helpful. But it's not where the defence starts.

Never been to self defence classes so I can't recall where I learned that, but I've done the holding the keys thing automatically for decades - bet a lot of women do that.

 

[friendofdorothy]

I know when men have started wanking on public transport and I've moved away saying loudly 'there's a wanker here' the man has done the whole looking innocent 'she's mad' thing so everyone looks at me like I'm the problem.

 

[Saul Goodman]

And while I’m on it- the delusion of men. There appears to be no ‘she’s out of my league’ filter, at all. On one level charming- maybe they really think it’s their sparkly personalities that matter? Maybe they think they have sparkly personalities?! - but so often a man will repeatedly come on to and harass a women with no ‘what would she see in me?’ thought process. It’s a sense of entitlement to women and their bodies and attention.

And viewers often collude in it. I had a boss who wrote me love poetry (my boyfriend described it as a cross between a Bon Jovi lyric and a mid year review) and was clearly gagging to sleep with me. Colleagues would ask if I was seeing him (and infer I had slept my way to a promotion) when I was 35 years younger, in a relationship with someone more my own age etc- why on earth would I have been seeing him?!

Are you saying it's OK if a bloke approaches you, so long as he's good looking (in your eyes), but the ugly ones should stay away

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Oh gosh that's just... So depressing. Sorry that happened to you.

TBH, as I've reached middle age, I'm no longer shocked by that kind of behavior. When I was a teenager, grown men used to pull over to side of the road and try to coax you into their car. The first time that happened I was shocked enough to call the cops. That's about the time I figured out that calling the cops is a waste of time.

 

[Poot]

Absolutely scifisam ’that is not where the defence starts’

Very personal info coming up; I joke about why, when I was late teens/early 20s I covered myself up in long shapeless clothes and what was I thinking- did I think I was fat? I wish I was fat like that now- but actually I did it deliberately because I was tall and blonde and busty and I got *so* much unwanted and even dangerous attention I was just trying to disappear. At one point I had my timotei-style hair cropped off- not because I liked the look or anything, but because I was so sick of what people assume about women with swingy, shiny, blonde hair and big tits, even if they had covered every inch of skin in grungy layers.

I look back and feel really sorry for myself, that I wasn’t confident enough to face it down, and didn’t relax and enjoy my own body; and furious that the world was such that I didn’t feel able to.

It happens less now I’m older and fatter, obviously, but there are still so many assumptions that come with big tits and blonde. And you’re right about where people look: as I’ve got older, most men at least start talking to my face, but a quick flick of the eyes to my chest during the conversation is so common I barely notice it.

Totally get this. I am also over-blessed in the chest and have been since I was 13. I clearly remember shouting at my Dad to fuck off because I was walking to a friend's house and he was about the tenth person to beep his horn. I didn't know it was him So as soon as I realised I could dye my hair dark and wear lots of black velvet and big boots I was happy. (Still am!)

 

[Manter]

Are you saying it's OK if a bloke approaches you, so long as he's good looking (in your eyes), but the ugly ones should stay away

No. Read what I actually said rather than trolling, eh?

 

[Santino]

Are you saying it's OK if a bloke approaches you, so long as he's good looking (in your eyes), but the ugly ones should stay away

Fuck off

 

[polly]

TBH, as I've reached middle age, I'm no longer shocked by that kind of behavior. When I was a teenager, grown men used to pull over to side of the road and try to coax you into their car. The first time that happened I was shocked enough to call the cops. That's about the time I figured out that calling the cops is a waste of time.

I am entirely unsurprised that the police are complete shit in the US, just as they are here. I'm more shocked by the man wanking at you. Don't know why, when so many women here and elsewhere have so many similar stories. Still have the power to shock me though

Are you saying it's OK if a bloke approaches you, so long as he's good looking (in your eyes), but the ugly ones should stay away

Incels love to roll this one out. That's the company your comment is in.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Incels love to roll this one out. That's the company your comment is in.

I reported a promoted post on Twitter for some click bait site that had a cartoon making that "joke" and amazingly they actually banned the account! Unfortunately I think twitter only makes these good decisions by accident.

 

[spanglechick]

I was talking to my therapist about some of this stuff.

When I lost tonnes of weight, I hated it. I felt vulnerable and anonymous. Being fat allows lots of men to relate to me in a non sexualised way, so they can actually interact with me beyond all that. When I was slim, nobody talked to me in the same sort of environments where I’d have been a social magnet before. However, as well as being left at arms length, I was also being stared at, leered at, followed to the loos...

And when I found myself forty something and single, I started to wish away my middle age, wanted to leap straight to eccentric old bird. I stopped showing cleavage and started dressing like a five year old. Because it allows men to treat me as a person, and not some tragic “cougar” figure.

 

[Saul Goodman]

No. Read what I actually said rather than trolling, eh?

That's actually what you actually said

 

[Saul Goodman]

Incels love to roll this one out. That's the company your comment is in.

I'm actually a handsome bastard who has no problem in that department, but thanks for confirming my suspicions.

 

[Manter]

That's actually what you actually said

No you illiterate cunt, I said ‘but so often a man will *repeatedly come on to and harass* a women’

If you don’t know the difference between approach and repeatedly come on and harass you should be locked up, you rapey motherfucker

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

I am entirely unsurprised that the police are complete shit in the US, just as they are here. I'm more shocked by the man wanking at you. Don't know why, when so many women here and elsewhere have so many similar stories. Still have the power to shock me though

Probably the most shocking thing is that I live on one of the busiest streets in the city (and near a children's zoo). I suspect part of the allure is the disapproval he gets while doing it.

 

[Saul Goodman]

No you illiterate cunt, I said ‘but so often a man will *repeatedly come on to and harass* a women’

If you don’t know the difference between approach and repeatedly come on and harass you should be locked up, you rapey motherfucker

You said
"And while I’m on it- the delusion of men. There appears to be no ‘she’s out of my league’ filter, at all. On one level charming- maybe they really think it’s their sparkly personalities that matter? Maybe they think they have sparkly personalities?!"
That's what you said, and all the abuse in the world won't change that. But well done accusing me of being a rapist.
Anyway, fuck it. It's obvious what these threads are about.