Feminism- experiences of man-whispering and the refusal to do so...

[Manter]

That's fair enough, my only objection would be that the system has as many detrimental affects on men as it does on women. Men held positions of power for a long time but women didn't have zero input, this thread is about one way women can influence men after all. Women are as complicit in it as men are, there are a range of other bell curves where women have a higher likelihood of having a negative trait. patriarchy is a terrible term.

I really am going to bugger off now, i've been talking way too much

But that’s what all the women on this thread are saying. Patriarchy screws women, it screws men, I want better for me and the people I love, including a five year old boy whose future shouldn’t have to include violence and emotional repression and increased suicide risk just because he has a penis.

 

[Steel Icarus]

That's fair enough, my only objection would be that the system has as many detrimental affects on men as it does on women. Men held positions of power for a long time but women didn't have zero input, this thread is about one way women can influence men after all. Women are as complicit in it as men are, there are a range of other bell curves where women have a higher likelihood of having a negative trait. patriarchy is a terrible term.

I really am going to bugger off now, i've been talking way too much

I'd be interested in your view of how patriarchy harms men no-no
Thread here. https://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/male-experiences-of-patriarchy.364927/

 

[Mrs Miggins]

...this thread is about one way women can influence men after all. Women are as complicit in it as men are...

And that is absolutely infuriating! This baked in notion that as women we are constantly told that to get what we want we have to pussyfoot around and cajole men rather than just saying "this is what I want".

I also absolutely despise that thing about the man in a family being just another kid for the woman to look after. In fact the biggest kid of all because he's so useless at domestic things and ooh isn't it just adorable really. He can't help it because he is a man and you, woman, you have to look after everything. It demeans us all.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

And it is 100% deliberate

 

[SheilaNaGig]

The thing is though...this thread isn't actually about whether both women and men can be arseholes. It's specifically about the female experience of being conditioned to be submissive to and placate men.

It feels like no-no is trying to remind me of my conditioning. It feels like he's undermining my thoughts feelings and perceptions. It feels like maybe I need to retreat and think twice about what I'm saying. It feels like I'm being told that it's my fault that things are so hard, or my fault I don't understand it from the male perspective. It feels like it's pointless trying to explain. It feels like I shouldn't even bother trying because I'm up against something implacable, something entrenched. It feels like the patriarchy.

 

[Mrs Miggins]

It feels like no-no is trying to remind me of my conditioning. It feels like he's undermining my thoughts feelings and perceptions. It feels like maybe I need to retreat and think twice about what I'm saying. It feels like I'm being told that it's my fault that things are so hard, or my fault I don't understand it from the male perspective. It feels like it's pointless trying to explain. It feels like I shouldn't even bother trying because I'm up against something implacable, something entrenched. It feels like the patriarchy.

I have been reading all these threads rather than posting as I am far less well read than many people here and am not all that good at writing thoughtful arguments but to me this last few pages has felt like whatever any of us have to say, the come back is "yeah but women do that too" which I think is what you are saying in a far more articulate way.

It is like banging your head against a brick wall.

It feels like "shut up - you are just being hysterical. You imagine things that are not there. All of you."

 

[Clair De Lune]

Can we have a musical interlude?

 

[SheilaNaGig]

I'm struck by how many woman (including me) have been saying "Right! Fuck this, I'm out" over recent pages, here and on other threads. We've engaged in good faith, answered the same questions and responded to the same points over and over again. We've started new threads in response to men saying "If only it could be approached like this instead". We've been told we're hurting their feelings, being too this that or the other. We've reiterated that we love men, that we recognise that women also contribute to the problem, that men are also badly off...

We keep bumping up against this notion that at base, at root, in the end, it's women who are the problem. Either we're inventing it, or we're perpetuating it.

 

[Mrs Miggins]

Being told we're inventing it is the most infuriating thing! Fuck's sake how can anyone say that with a straight face?

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Being told we're inventing it is the most infuriating thing! Fuck's sake how can anyone say that with a straight face?

Because they really truly believe that. *They're* not inventing or exaggerating. Men don't do that. Men are honest and true and straightforward.

 

[Mrs Miggins]

Because they really truly believe that. *They're* not inventing or exaggerating. Men don't do that. Men are honest and true and straightforward.

Oh yeah sorry - I forgot

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Because they really truly believe that. *They're* not inventing or exaggerating. Men don't do that. Men are honest and true and straightforward.

If a man feels or thinks a thing, his conditioning tells him it's true. If a woman says or thinks a thing she needs reassurance from others that it's true.


ETA You never see men posting "Am I being unreasonable?" threads. Only women ask AIBU?

 

[Treacle Toes]

There is a deep, deep pathology to this. I've learnt over the years that to be well I simply can't engage with and surrender to it. I have to hold a boundary and limit the amount of man-whispering and gender subservience I do.

 

[Steel Icarus]

I'd be interested in your view of how patriarchy harms men no-no
Thread here. https://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/male-experiences-of-patriarchy.364927/

Just so you know, no-no - I strongly recommend contributing to this. It's been created specifically for men to share their opinions and experiences on what they understand of the patriarchy.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

If a man feels or thinks a thing, his conditioning tells him it's true. If a woman says it thinks a thing she needs reassurance from others that it's true.


ETA You never see men posting "Am I being unreasonable?" threads. Only women ask AIBU?

The problem I've found is that i was reared to believe in myself. It was only when I started working that I realised that mens opinions were more valuable. Mine, no matter how good, were not appreciated or wanted.
It has sucked the joy out of a lot of my work but I do make a strong point of telling the teenage girls that I work with that they need to nourish their dreams and expand their life view...that they can be so much..
Sadly many have very narrow views of what their lives will be.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

There is a deep, deep pathology to this. I've learnt over the years that to be well I simply can't engage with and surrender to it. I have to hold a boundary and limit the amount of man-whispering and gender subservience I do.

I agree. It is deeply pathological. And yet it is we and not them who are obliged to do the work of staying well in its presence.

And I find that the weary exhaustion of holding the line also makes me unwell. So I have to slack off and rest sometimes. And then in that moment I'm vulnerable to the wolves.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

I agree. It is deeply pathological. And yet it is we and not them who are obliged to do the work of staying well in its presence.

And I find that the weary exhaustion of holding the line also makes me unwell. So I have to slack off and rest sometimes. And then in that moment I'm vulnerable to the wolves.

This ..^^
exactly.

 

[kalidarkone]

I think you're bullshitting there. And no...in general women dont walk all over other women in the workplace

I in no way support no-no 's view but ime in Housing and ESPECIALLY in midwifery and nursing....women really really do

 

[Baronage-Phase]

I in no way support no-no 's view but ime in Housing and ESPECIALLY in midwifery and nursing....women really really do

That is awful to read and I'm so sad you have had to deal with that.

 

[Mrs Miggins]

On the subject of women upholding the patriarchy, my ex-mother-in-law is having surgery in a few weeks time and needs a bit of aftercare at home. She is expecting her daughter-in-law to be providing this rather than her son despite them both working, having 2 kids of their own and her having arthritis. It hadn't even occurred to her that her son ought to be doing this for her.

 

[editor]

Loads of women find these things trivial.

Of course people are seeking to justify victimhood. the entire point of patriarchy is that women are victims of oppression.

Sexism exists and it's shit but the idea that society is arranged around the whims of men in order to subjugate women simply isn't true. Everyone one of us plays our part in shaping society, complain about shitty behaviour but don't pin it on men writ large.

It's ok to tell women that they're wrong, they're more than capable of standing up for themselves.

I'm giving you three days off this thread because you appear to be pissing everyone off for no good reason.

 

[weepiper]

Here is an example of a woman angering a man by merely posting a picture of herself smiling online.



These are the kind of guys we get through life safely by man-whispering.

 

[Mrs Miggins]

Wow

 

[Santino]

One solution

Women are happier without children or a spouse, says happiness expert

I loved the part of the survey that concluded that in fact married people are happier than single people but only if their spouse was in the room when they were asked.

Women should be wary of marriage — because while married women say they’re happy, they’re lying. According to behavioral scientist Paul Dolan, promoting his recently released book Happy Every After, they’ll be much happier if they steer clear of marriage and children entirely.

“Married people are happier than other population subgroups, but only when their spouse is in the room when they’re asked how happy they are. When the spouse is not present: f***ing miserable,” Dolan said, citing the American Time Use Survey, a national survey available from the Bureau of Labor Statistics and used for academic research on how Americans live their lives.

The problem? That finding is the result of a grievous misunderstanding on Dolan’s part of how the American Time Use Survey works. The people conducting the survey didn’t ask married people how happy they were, shoo their spouses out of the room, and then ask again. Dolan had misinterpreted one of the categories in the survey, “spouse absent,” which refers to married people whose partner is no longer living in their household, as meaning the spouse stepped out of the room.

A new book says married women are miserable. Don’t believe it.

 

[Poot]

A new book says married women are miserable. Don’t believe it.

Ah, the old confusion over the word absent. Makes me wonder whether these writers ought to organise their own bloody surveys. Or think about the meaning of words.

I'm still getting over penguins not falling over backwards when a helicopter passes. I don't need this shit.

 

[pinkmonkey]

Ugh well yesterday... Woman in forum that I admin asks for help in ''location x'' because she's alone, there are street drinkers outside her window and she is feeling vulnerable. When folk line up telling her she's overreacting she explains why she's intimidated by them. Says she's a rape and abuse victim of someone who was drunk. Man then corrects her by pointing out there are two ''location x's'' and which one does she mean, then gets arsey when she points out that of course she means ''location x'' in London because its a London based group. Man gets really aggressive and points out that he, 'would have come and helped her (by throwing punches at them it seems), but he's not going to because she was too attention seeking by correcting him ''. She tells him to stop it, he won't stop. I then comment as admin, 'you obviously can't tell you're being a dick. So I'm telling you, you're being a dick'. And I close the thread because apparently the street drinkers have gone and enough bullshit already. Not satisfied at centering his tantrum *and* shitting all over her cry for help he then makes several whiney posts filling the whole page, complaining that we are attention seekers before I ban him. Fucksake. She had a lucky escape, had he come to help her you just know the situation would've escalated into a ruck. The punchline: There is only one 'location x'. There isn't one anywhere else in the UK. I looked it up. But yeah, this is what I have to deal with. If I swear I get the, 'language young lady,' from some of our older members. I mean, wtf, do they expect me to post a GIF of myself curtsying before every post? Yes I think some do. Fuck that.

 

[polly]

Here is an example of a woman angering a man by merely posting a picture of herself smiling online.



These are the kind of guys we get through life safely by man-whispering.

Ohh god urgh And your story too pinkmonkey - so familiar.

I follow an fb page called Bye Felipe, which is about exposing the creepy and aggressive bullshit that women get from strange men in social media private inboxes or on dating apps, particularly when rejected. I wouldn't say it's life affirming, but it's an education, if anyone wants to check it out.

 

[trashpony]

I’m in a camping group on Facebook which I don’t post in but they’ve kicked loads of blokes out for harassing women. And turn down about 50% of blokes who want to join because it looks like they only want to join because they want to harass women.

I am in awe of how many women go up hills and camp on their own or with their kids.

 

[pinkmonkey]

I’m in a camping group on Facebook which I don’t post in but they’ve kicked loads of blokes out for harassing women. And turn down about 50% of blokes who want to join because it looks like they only want to join because they want to harass women.

I am in awe of how many women go up hills and camp on their own or with their kids.

We had to set up a secret womens group because of the same crap.

 

[chilango]

I’m in a camping group on Facebook which I don’t post in but they’ve kicked loads of blokes out for harassing women. And turn down about 50% of blokes who want to join because it looks like they only want to join because they want to harass women.

I am in awe of how many women go up hills and camp on their own or with their kids.

Yeah.

My wife will hike alone, but only routes where she feels safe.

I'm happy hiking most anywhere and will wildcamp alone.