Feminism- experiences of man-whispering and the refusal to do so...

[Baronage-Phase]

God I hate it when that happens. When I'm overlooked at work i usually put it down to other people being more sharp elbowed than me but maybe it's because they're discriminating against me because of some aspect of my identity, I am mixed race so I guess it must be that. Couldn't possibly be any other reason.

It happens every woman I work with. And its men doing it. Not women.

 

[no-no]

It happens every woman I work with. And its men doing it. Not women.

Give over, women don't step on each other in the workplace?

I don't know a single man who hasn't experienced this, often from women.

 

[Poot]

Give over, women don't step on each other in the workplace?

I don't know a single man who hasn't experienced this, often from women.

You mentioned before that you fixed things. How many of your colleagues are women? Is your boss a woman?

 

[Baronage-Phase]

I don't know a single man who hasn't experienced this, often from women.

I think you're bullshitting there. And no...in general women dont walk all over other women in the workplace

 

[Mrs Miggins]

Give over, women don't step on each other in the workplace?

I don't know a single man who hasn't experienced this, often from women.

Let's get this straight. You are saying that something that is very widely talked about as an experience that many, many women have in the workplace is nonsense because you personally don't believe it to be true? Is that what you are saying?

 

[no-no]

I think you're bullshitting there. And no...in general women don't walk all over other women in the workplace

Both genders do this, whether they're doing it because they're sexist or just because they want to take credit for other peoples ideas is unknown.
It's happened to me numerous times working under female management. Get rid of the macs I said, repeatedly, they're a pain in the arse. Ignored....until a year later she brings up all my complaints about apple macs and why we should ditch them as if she'd come to this conclusion all on her own.

Was it because I was a man? Maybe it was because I'm mixed race? I doubt it, more likely just because i was a junior staff member and she wants to look like she's the one coming up with ideas since she's the team leader.

Look at this, 2 thirds of women again...

More than two-thirds of women feel ‘bullied’ by their female colleagues, study finds

 

[no-no]

Let's get this straight. You are saying that something that is very widely talked about as an experience that many, many women have in the workplace is nonsense because you personally don't believe it to be true? Is that what you are saying?

No, that's not what I'm saying.

I believe it happens, I don't believe we know that the reason it happens is sexism, that's a wild and convenient assumption. I'm sure a fair bit of it might be due to sexism but it's not safe to just assume any male to female rudeness is down to that.

Could you give an example of when a man is rude to a woman that you wouldn't consider sexist? Some people are just rude, they're rude to men, women or anyone who they think they can get away with it on. We've all met people like that.

 

[Poot]

I have felt bullied by a female line manager. God, she was awful. Really terrible. And it made life very difficult for a while. But that's entirely separate to the deeply-entrenched willy-waving corporate bullshit that's deeply embedded in my company culture at the moment, where I feel like I am repeatedly banging my head against a brick wall. It's cultural and will not change. That is the patriarchy.

 

[no-no]

You mentioned before that you fixed things. How many of your colleagues are women? Is your boss a woman?

I've had numerous female bosses, they're no better or worse than male bosses on the whole in my experience.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Give over, women don't step on each other in the workplace?

I don't know a single man who hasn't experienced this, often from women.

I've seen major issues in all women teams in my workplace over the years. I can think of as many women considered 'bullies' as I can men (though claims of bullying always need to be analysed). Also seen people happy to take credit for other people's work (most recent example male on male). There's a crazy amount of generalising when it suits folk! You know, maybe it's not gender; maybe it's the individual...

 

[Poot]

That's it, I can't be bothered. I'm off. I'm fed up of repeating myself.

 

[no-no]

I have felt bullied by a female line manager. God, she was awful. Really terrible. And it made life very difficult for a while. But that's entirely separate to the deeply-entrenched willy-waving corporate bullshit that's deeply embedded in my company culture at the moment, where I feel like I am repeatedly banging my head against a brick wall. It's cultural and will not change. That is the patriarchy.

Yeah I can believe that some workplaces are particulary bad in that regard, i've worked in places with a boys club culture too. Again, these guys are just arseholes, they treat other men who aren't in their wanky gang just as dismissively.

I've worked in offices with predominantly female management teams where similar cliques develop. It's probably more common with men because men still occupy most management positions.

It is cultural and I think it will change, it already is. The one thing that'd speed it up most imo would be to give men identical rights to parental benefits and leave. That alone would mean employers would be less able to predict which of their employees are likely to need paternal leave. Which would mean more women in the workplace if that's what couples up and down the land choose to do.

More women in the workplace means less of a lads culture, it is changing, we don't need to act like every instance of male rudeness is an extension of thousands of years of oppression, i find that just a bit over the top.

 

[Mrs Miggins]

No, that's not what I'm saying.

I believe it happens, I don't believe we know that the reason it happens is sexism, that's a wild and convenient assumption. I'm sure a fair bit of it might be due to sexism but it's not safe to just assume any male to female rudeness is down to that.

Could you give an example of when a man is rude to a woman that you wouldn't consider sexist? Some people are just rude, they're rude to men, women or anyone who they think they can get away with it on. We've all met people like that.

I can't give an example no but I can recognise when someone is just being rude whatever sex they are.

At least you can admit that "a fair bit of it might be due to sexism".

I think it can be very difficult sometimes for men to see it because you do not experience the daily drip drip drip of it that women do experience.

Hands up - I think I've been very lucky in both my social life and my working life that I have experienced relatively little sexism but I still know it exists because I have still experienced it and other women tell their stories.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

I think women managers who bully are aping the patriarchy. I see it where I work. Only one female bully. She is acting the same as the 3 male bullies who happen to be in middle management. She thinks this will get her promoted. It may well do so.

Every case of bullying is different. I guess some managers bully purely because they're dicks, but others bully because they feel under pressure themselves, can't handle it, and take it out on staff lower than them, either in anger or by micro-managing.

 

[no-no]

You say management did this to you? Maybe she needed more than one opinion and waited til there were enough complaints to be categorical ?

There is a different dynamic when you're actually part of managenent and you find that your equals are doing it to you....repeatedly.

I think women managers who bully are aping the patriarchy. I see it where I work. Only one female bully. She is acting the same as the 3 male bullies who happen to be in middle management. She thinks this will get her promoted. It may well do so.

Yeah, maybe she wanted more confirmation, maybe she'd been thinking of doing it for years, could have been any number of things other than her dismissing me because of my identity. I wasn't that bothered, just happy the macs were finally going in the bin.

I've never worked on a team where some of my grasping colleagues haven't behaved in similar ways.

Your last statement is incredibly sexist, women are perfectly capable of being sharp elbowed and grasping without having to learn from men.

 

[no-no]

Every case of bullying is different. I guess some managers bully purely because they're dicks, but others bully because they feel under pressure themselves, can't handle it, and take it out on staff lower than them, either in anger or by micro-managing.

A lot of the bullying managers I've had are def feeling the pressure, they're usually good examples of the peter principle. They're barely more qualified for the job than those under them and they have a hard time justifying their position which manifests as cuntyness.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

A lot of the bullying managers I've had are def feeling the pressure, they're usually good examples of the peter principle. They're barely more qualified for the job than those under them and they have a hard time justifying their position which manifests as cuntyness.

I also think some people perceived as bullies are perfectionists, so expect the same in others. I've only been aware of one male being weird with a female in my general area and it was only ever with this one female, although he's not necessarily a great manager in other ways. Myself and my colleagues at the same level spend a lot of time analysing our superiors and their motives...

 

[Mrs Miggins]

The thing is though...this thread isn't actually about whether both women and men can be arseholes. It's specifically about the female experience of being conditioned to be submissive to and placate men.

 

[Miss-Shelf]

When I was 18, my friends mum and I shared a long car journey to go visit her son (my friend) at university. We got on well and chatted all the while. I don't know how we got on to the subject but essentially she told me that if I married a man I'd have to man whisper him. She didn't use that phrase , of course, she said something like you can get what you want by working around it but not directly confronting a man. I was like but but but I don't want to do that....and she was like you'll learn...

And I have sort of learned but I also haven't....maybe part of the reason why idudnt marry a man

 

[Winot]

The thing is though...this thread isn't actually about whether both women and men can be arseholes. It's specifically about the female experience of being conditioned to be submissive to and placate men.

Unfortunately the thread seems to have become a soapbox for the pub bore.

 

[Miss-Shelf]

Unfortunately the thread seems to have become a soapbox for the pub bore.

Don't let it be so

 

[Winot]

Don't let it be so

I favour the ignore function.

 

[Manter]

Because every day it exists. What you call normal is part of the oppression.
I'll give you an example.
I work as the only woman on a middle management team of 6 people. Repeatedly I've given good advice abd made points and asked for certain things to be put in place.....ignored.
Then it might be days or weeks or even months later and a male member of the group will mahe the EXACT same suggestions and suddenly its a great idea and lets run with that.

You obviously have no fucking clue how that feels. And yes its the fucking patriarchy in action. Its the boys club. And it happens all the time....to women. So yes...it is a norm for many of us. And its shit to sit and hear your exact idea beung given by a male colleague and its suddenly a fantastic idea.

Oh yes. Did you see the smack the pony sketch- ‘excellent suggestion, maybe one of the men would like to make it?’ That’s my working life some weeks

 

[Miss-Shelf]

I've just got another seat in the pub

 

[Johnny Vodka]

The thing is though...this thread isn't actually about whether both women and men can be arseholes. It's specifically about the female experience of being conditioned to be submissive to and placate men.

Fair enough.. and I'll duck out of this thread.. but I do see a huge amount of generalising when it comes to male and female behaviour and personality traits. I would say I've known both men and women who I'd tread on eggshells when dealing with. There might not (generally) be the same threat of violence from a woman, but a woman who can't take certain words/opinions/won't be argued with can cause immense grief/divisions in a family situation. This would be expressed in huffy behaviour and trying to make others feel guilty. (Yeah, I'm thinking of a particular person, but don't really want to go into the details.)

 

[Miss-Shelf]

Oh yes. Did you see the smack the pony sketch- ‘excellent suggestion, maybe one of the men would like to make it?’ That’s my working life some weeks

I'm going to look that up

 

[Mrs Miggins]

Fair enough.. and I'll duck out of this thread.. but I do see a huge amount of generalising when it comes to male and female behaviour and personality traits. I would say I've known both men and women who I'd tread on eggshells when dealing with. There might not (generally) be the same threat of violence from a woman, but a woman who can't take certain words/opinions/won't be argued with can cause immense grief/divisions in a family situation. This would be expressed in trying to make others feel guilty. (Yeah, I'm thinking of a particular person, but don't really want to go into the details.)

As several people have said, this has already been discussed earlier in the thread.

 

[Manter]

Fair enough.. and I'll duck out of this thread.. but I do see a huge amount of generalising when it comes to male and female behaviour and personality traits. I would say I've known both men and women who I'd tread on eggshells when dealing with. There might not (generally) be the same threat of violence from a woman, but a woman who can't take certain words/opinions/won't be argued with can cause immense grief/divisions in a family situation. This would be expressed in trying to make others feel guilty. (Yeah, I'm thinking of a particular person, but don't really want to go into the details.)

Imagine you have two bell curves along an axis that represent, say, arrogance. Or entitlement. Or emotional labour. They overlap, and there are outliers in both curves that share characteristics, but one curve tends to show more of a characteristic than the other.
That’s why when we are talking about something as a characteristic of men, we are not talking about you, Jonny vodka, and saying that you won’t find any women anywhere that are, say, more arrogant or entitled or whatever than you. We are saying men as a class due to centuries of patriarchy and socialisation and so on and so forth have a higher likelihood to be more arrogant and entitled and (this is the important bit) we know this because we see it play out in our lives day after day after day.

Doesn’t mean all men are arrogant. Doesn't mean women aren’t. Doesn’t mean we are judging you as a person right now in that moment. Means there is a pattern that affects our lives and we are naming it and challenging it, so we can try and change it

 

[Steel Icarus]

Might be useful Johnny Vodka
https://www.urban75.net/forums/thre...m-and-sexism-and-patriarchy-and-so-on.365028/

DO read the OP, though. It's not somewhere to go and stink up with whataboutery

 

[no-no]

Imagine you have two bell curves along an axis that represent, say, arrogance. Or entitlement. Or emotional labour. They overlap, and there are outliers in both curves that share characteristics, but one curve tends to show more of a characteristic than the other.
That’s why when we are talking about something as a characteristic of men, we are not talking about you, Jonny vodka, and saying that you won’t find any women anywhere that are, say, more arrogant or entitled or whatever than you. We are saying men as a class due to centuries of patriarchy and socialisation and so on and so forth have a higher likelihood to be more arrogant and entitled and (this is the important bit) we know this because we see it play out in our lives day after day after day.

Doesn’t mean all men are arrogant. Doesn't mean women aren’t. Doesn’t mean we are judging you as a person right now in that moment. Means there is a pattern that affects our lives and we are naming it and challenging it, so we can try and change it

That's fair enough, my only objection would be that the system has as many detrimental affects on men as it does on women. Men held positions of power for a long time but women didn't have zero input, this thread is about one way women can influence men after all. Women are as complicit in it as men are, there are a range of other bell curves where women have a higher likelihood of having a negative trait. patriarchy is a terrible term.

I really am going to bugger off now, i've been talking way too much