Feminism- experiences of man-whispering and the refusal to do so...

[smmudge]

What is the pay off for you in minimising in this way?

So he can act like a sexist dickhead and convince himself he's not being sexist?

 

[no-no]

Of course I listen to women, I just don't believe them.

Not all the time no, just like I treat men.

Welcome to equality

 

[no-no]

You don't have to 'buy' them. They are not for sale. You do have to accept them though, because they are true and real. What is the pay off for you in minimising in this way?

Are they true and real though? That's the payoff, having an accurate picture of the world.

While sexism obv exists that doesn't mean every example of a man being rude to a woman is an example of it. I find it odd that some of you have this idea that it's wrong to question a woman's story. Being equal means no kid gloves and you have to justify what you're saying to other people without having to rely on this "just believe" philosophy.

 

[no-no]

Do you think they're mistaken? Or dishonest? Why do you think that? Why are they like that?

They might be....women can be wrong and dishonest can't they? Do you always believe what a woman says because she's a woman?

 

[no-no]

You aren't helping yourself out much here.

It's best not to placate people isn't it?

 

[Treacle Toes]

Are they true and real though? That's the payoff, having an accurate picture of the world.

While sexism obv exists that doesn't mean every example of a man being rude to a woman is an example of it. I find it odd that some of you have this idea that it's wrong to question a woman's story. Being equal means no kid gloves and you have to justify what you're saying to other people without having to rely on this "just believe" philosophy.

I don't think anyone is saying 'just believe' though. You have been given countless examples, so have others on this thread. You have also been linked to other sources of evidence...it's all there if you cared to look and see. You just seem to be saiyng 'but, but, but...'

I also think that what women want is 'equity' which isn't the same as equality. Achieved or achieving equality can be as shallow and everyday as being charged the same for you cup of coffee as a bloke whilst still not being paid the same as them for doing the same job. That isn't 'fair', nor does it even up centuries of the same/similar everyday oppressions.

 

[no-no]

I don't think anyone is saying 'just believe' though. You have been given countless examples, so have others on this thread. You have also been linked to other sources of evidence...it's all there if you cared to look and see. You just seem to be saiyng 'but, but, but...'

I also think that what women want is 'equity' which isn't the same as equality. Achieved or achieving equality can be as shallow and everyday as being charged the same for you cup of coffee as a bloke whilst still not being paid the same as them for doing the same job.

There have been a few comments chastising me for not simply believing....

I've had lots of stories that men could give you equivalents for, other than the stories of actual abuse I haven't seen anything that couldn't be categorised as general arseyness.

Equity means being expected to justify your claims doesn't it? just like everyone else.

I think I'll bail out now, there doesn't seem to be anything more than anecdote to back up the idea. Actual abuse and the placation women have to do to avoid aggression? sure I can definitely see that.

The low level interactions though? Someone was a bit rude to you? You placated your boyfriend to avoid an argument over who cooks? no, I don't find it convincing at all and the connection you're trying to draw between them and serious abuse is weak to non existant

 

[Athos]

They might be....women can be wrong and dishonest can't they? Do you always believe what a woman says because she's a woman?

They can be. By what do you think it's them not you?

 

[Manter]

I’ve eyerolled so hard I’ve strained something

 

[no-no]

They can be. By what do you think it's them not you?

Then I don't really understand why you have an issue with my position. I take each story/individual on their own merits, don't you?

 

[no-no]

I’ve eyerolled so hard I’ve strained something

God, Me too!

 

[Athos]

Then I don't really understand why you have an issue with my position. I take each story/individual on their own merits, don't you?

Not only on their individual merits, no. Because requiring proof in every individual case can have the cumulative effect of obscuring a wider social problem.

Imagine a 1,000,000 interactions, where each of them had a 49.999999% chance of being an example of patriarchy.

You'd say that each one, when considered in isolation, probably wasn't; you'd aggregate those to 1,000,000 incidents that probably weren't - a whole load of nothing.

Whereas, by looking at the whole, I'd see a probable half million incidents of misogyny (albeit I wouldn't be able to point to any one individually with any degree of certainty).

I see no issue with using anecdote and archetypes to unpack social issues; whereas I would require better proof if I was going to challenge or accuse someone directly. What's happening in this thread is more akin to the former.

 

[trashpony]

And this is why we don't talk about feminism on urban

 

[no-no]

Not only on their individual merits, no. Because requiring proof in every individual case can have the cumulative effect of obscuring a wider social problem.

Imagine a 1,000,000 interactions, where each of them had a 49.999999% chance of being an example of patriarchy.

You'd say that each one, when considered in isolation, probably wasn't; you'd aggregate those to 1,000,000 incidents that probably weren't - a whole load of nothing.

Whereas, by looking at the whole, I'd see a probable half million incidents of misogyny (albeit I wouldn't be able to point to any one individually with any degree of certainty).

I see no issue with using anecdote and archetypes to unpack social issues; whereas I would require better proof if I was going to challenge or accuse someone directly. What's happening in this thread is more akin to the former.

Where are you getting the 49.99999% figure from? what's the actual figure? How could you ever know?

Any figure would be pretty unreliable. Self reported and dependent upon the women assuming the intentions of the men, it'd be a totally subjective figure.

Using anecdote and archetype to unpack social issues is a very broad brush and inaccurate way to look at it, it's a bit lazy tbh. Anyhow, if you're going to do that then what would be the problem if other people use their anecdotes and archetypes to present a different perspective by saying "that happens to me too". It's not even a denial that these things take place, it's just saying maybe the patriarchy is a flawed idea, maybe it's a bit more complicated than that. Maybe women are victims as well as oppressors in a thousand different ways, maybe men are too.

Anyone who looks for examples to justify victimhood is going to find them esp if they rely on anecdote. There's plenty of actual evidence to backup reports of sexism towards women, there's no need to include trivial interactions too.

 

[Athos]

Where are you getting the 49.99999% figure from? what's the actual figure? How could you ever know?

Any figure would be pretty unreliable. Self reported and dependent upon the women assuming the intentions of the men, it'd be a totally subjective figure.

Using anecdote and archetype to unpack social issues is a very broad brush and inaccurate way to look at it, it's a bit lazy tbh. Anyhow, if you're going to do that then what would be the problem if other people use their anecdotes and archetypes to present a different perspective by saying "that happens to me too". It's not even a denial that these things take place, it's just saying maybe the patriarchy is a flawed idea, maybe it's a bit more complicated than that. Maybe women are victims as well as oppressors in a thousand different ways, maybe men are too.

Anyone who looks for examples to justify victimhood is going to find them esp if they rely on anecdote. There's plenty of actual evidence to backup reports of sexism towards women, there's no need to include trivial interactions too.

You're still missing the point.

Even if it's 10%, that's 100,000; as opposed to none proven!

Why are you assuming bad faith? That women are looking to justify victimhood?

Clearly, women don't find these things trivial.

I think I'm done with this, though; I'm happy to agree to disagree - to accept that you disbelieve that we live in a patriarchy, and many women's accounts of it.

Not least of all because this was a thread for women to post their experiences, not men to argue that they're wrong/lying.

 

[no-no]

You're still missing the point.

Even if it's 10%, that's 100,000; as opposed to none proven!

Why are you assuming bad faith? That women are looking to justify victimhood?

Clearly, women don't find these things trivial.

I think I'm done with this, though; I'm happy to agree to disagree - to accept that you disbelieve that we live in a patriarchy, and many women's accounts of it.

Not least of all because this was a thread for women to post their experiences, not men to argue that they're wrong/lying.

Loads of women find these things trivial.

Of course people are seeking to justify victimhood. the entire point of patriarchy is that women are victims of oppression.

Sexism exists and it's shit but the idea that society is arranged around the whims of men in order to subjugate women simply isn't true. Everyone one of us plays our part in shaping society, complain about shitty behaviour but don't pin it on men writ large.

It's ok to tell women that they're wrong, they're more than capable of standing up for themselves.

 

[friendofdorothy]

I've never been that good at placating men, smoothing their egos or what ever. So I don't intend to start now so no-no do just fuck off.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Sexism exists and it's shit but the idea that society is arranged around the whims of men in order to subjugate women simply isn't true.

...and this is why we can't have nice things.

If you understand what The Patriarchy is and how it operates, has created implicit power dynamics, influenced culture, unconsciously associates, embeds itself, infiltrates, is internalised, replicates itself and manifests it beggars belief that you could make such a silly statement to be honest.

 

[Poot]

Loads of women find these things trivial.

Of course people are seeking to justify victimhood. the entire point of patriarchy is that women are victims of oppression.

Sexism exists and it's shit but the idea that society is arranged around the whims of men in order to subjugate women simply isn't true. Everyone one of us plays our part in shaping society, complain about shitty behaviour but don't pin it on men writ large.

It's ok to tell women that they're wrong, they're more than capable of standing up for themselves.

You haven't listened. You haven't read the thread. You neither understand what patriarchy is nor what feminism is. And yet still you're telling us what to think. Standard.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I feel like I am simply colluding in some level of cultural pathology by constantly arguing back or even responding to this level of disingenuous, lalala I can't hear you, pfft you think you have it bad, but what about YOU, stop hurting my ego, what about the men, that happens to me as well OKAY stuff which is nicely packaged in a box with the address that reads....

Women,
The Patriarchy Exists
Of Course Street
Don'tPushItthoughVille
PO BOX SettleForWhatYouHave
001SUBMIT100

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Loads of women find these things trivial.

Of course people are seeking to justify victimhood. the entire point of patriarchy is that women are victims of oppression.

Sexism exists and it's shit but the idea that society is arranged around the whims of men in order to subjugate women simply isn't true. Everyone one of us plays our part in shaping society, complain about shitty behaviour but don't pin it on men writ large.

It's ok to tell women that they're wrong, they're more than capable of standing up for themselves.

This post makes me very angry. And extremely frustrated. This is the epitome of what we're up against in this struggle to be understood.

If even a third of men think like this then there's no fucking point. I suspect it's a great many more.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Some men don't want to listen to women. Like we have no right to express how we see the world if men don't agree.

Not all men, not all women - of course.

 

[Treacle Toes]

In my everyday life, metaphorically speaking, I don't even bother to write 'Return to sender' anymore, I just bin this shit.

 

[Miss-Shelf]

I'm sure it's been posted here before but this might be a good time to post it again

LRB · Mary Beard · The Public Voice of Women

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Loads of women find these things trivial.

Of course people are seeking to justify victimhood. the entire point of patriarchy is that women are victims of oppression.

Sexism exists and it's shit but the idea that society is arranged around the whims of men in order to subjugate women simply isn't true. Everyone one of us plays our part in shaping society, complain about shitty behaviour but don't pin it on men writ large.

It's ok to tell women that they're wrong, they're more than capable of standing up for themselves.

 

[no-no]

Some men don't want to listen to women. Like we have no right to express how we see the world if men don't agree.

Not all men, not all women - of course.

It's not like that at all, someone disagrees with you and that becomes "like we have no right to express how we see the world".

That's a good illustration of what I was saying. Some normal everyday interactions are cast as examples of oppression.

You have every right to express yourself and I'm sure you exercise that right imminently when you tell me to fuck off or shut up.

 

[no-no]

This post makes me very angry. And extremely frustrated. This is the epitome of what we're up against in this struggle to be understood.

If even a third of men think like this then there's no fucking point. I suspect it's a great many more.

Hold on to your hat, 2 thirds of women think this way.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

Hold on to your hat, 2 thirds of women think this way.

You're coming across as a total ass btw

 

[no-no]

Because every day it exists. What you call normal is part of the oppression.
I'll give you an example.
I work as the only woman on a middle management team of 6 people. Repeatedly I've given good advice abd made points and asked for certain things to be put in place.....ignored.
Then it might be days or weeks or even months later and a male member of the group will mahe the EXACT same suggestions and suddenly its a great idea and lets run with that.

You obviously have no fucking clue how that feels. And yes its the fucking patriarchy in action. Its the boys club. And it happens all the time....to women. So yes...it is a norm for many of us. And its shit to sit and hear your exact idea beung given by a male colleague and its suddenly a fantastic idea.

God I hate it when that happens. When I'm overlooked at work i usually put it down to other people being more sharp elbowed than me but maybe it's because they're discriminating against me because of some aspect of my identity, I am mixed race so I guess it must be that. Couldn't possibly be any other reason.

 

[Poot]

God I hate it when that happens. When I'm overlooked at work i usually put it down to other people being more sharp elbowed than me but maybe it's because they're discriminating against me because of some aspect of my identity, I am mixed race so I guess it must be that. Couldn't possibly be any other reason.

Yeah. That's it. Our elbows aren't sharp enough. That would have solved thousands of years of patriarchy. If only we'd asked you etc.