Feminism- experiences of man-whispering and the refusal to do so...

[Treacle Toes]

How can it be an example of something women do to placate men if men do exactly the same thing to placate women. Isn't it just people placating each other? In this example it wasn't even placation, it was just not telling someone with far more experience how to do their job.

The connection between this sort of everyday social lubrication and domestic violence is tenuous.

You could just talk to me rather than assuming my intentions and getting sweary.

Patriarchal playground ffs

I see you haven't actually read the thread yet, you are not the first man on this thread to miss the point and argue this stuff.

It's really frustrating and fucking boring.

 

[no-no]

You have basically said that women placating men if they think they are going to get punched is valid and everything else in this thread is the product of their imaginations because sometimes everyone is horrible.

That’s disingenuous bullshit- I don’t even really think you believe it. You are just belittling women’s shared, lived and expressed experience. Fuck off with that shit, then come back so you can fuck off again.

I didn't say it was a product of their imaginations at all, why are you making things up?

I totally believe that you think having to placate men during everyday exchanges is an example of women being belittled, reduced, disbelieved and patronised. I just think you're wrong. and the reason I think you're wrong is because men do that too. men placate men and women. Women placate men and women.We all do it all the time.

I don't see how you can arrive at your conclusion without ignoring the lived experiences of everyone on this thread that's said "but we all do that"

 

[no-no]

I see you haven't actually read the thread yet, you are not the first man on this thread to miss the point and argue this stuff.

I haven't read it cover to cover no. I've seen some legit examples involving creepy men or violent partners but I've also seen some examples that are just everyday experiences that any one might have.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

I see what you mean, but we all do that don't we? I don't see how this is an example of some kind of female conditioning. The previous examples where women are smoothing things over in order to keep violent and potentially violent men calm I get....but not telling a mechanic how to do his job? that's just being respectful.

You tell the guy you've got the code but he's the mechanic, he still has to confirm it, make sure there's nothing else wrong. when you start telling people how to do their own jobs....isn't that exactly what mansplaining is? or being condescending in common parlance.

No, I'm not telling the mechanic how to do his job. I was giving him the information he needed to do his job. To do his job he needed the history of the problem. I communicated that just as a male customer might. Once he figured out the problem for himself, he didn't need to spend 10 minutes telling me in excruciatingly patronizing detail things he already knew I was aware of.

 

[Manter]

I see you haven't actually read the thread yet, you are not the first man on this thread to miss the point and argue this stuff.

It's really frustrating and fucking boring.

But, but, he now says we are making it up. He’ll tell me I’m emotional in a minute.

 

[Manter]

No, I'm not telling the mechanic how to do his job. I was giving him the information he needed to do his job. To do his job he needed the history of the problem. I communicated that just as a male customer might. Once he figured out the problem for himself, he didn't need to spend 10 minutes telling me in excruciatingly patronizing detail things he already knew I was aware of.

He knows that. He’s pretending not to understand

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

He knows that. He’s pretending not to understand

I know, but my programming is to "keep sweet." I can't help myself.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I didn't say it was a product of their imaginations at all, why are you making things up?

I totally believe that you think having to placate men during everyday exchanges is an example of women being belittled, reduced, disbelieved and patronised. I just think you're wrong. and the reason I think you're wrong is because men do that too. men placate men and women. Women placate men and women.We all do it all the time.

I don't see how you can arrive at your conclusion without ignoring the lived experiences of everyone on this thread that's said "but we all do that"

So your assertion is that despite the fact that historically women have been subjugated by cultural, social and political dynamics on account of their biological sex, (a process that we still encounter each and every day in many forms) the experiences of 'placating' each other are still spread evenly?

 

[Treacle Toes]

I haven't read it cover to cover no. I've seen some legit examples involving creepy men or violent partners but I've also seen some examples that are just everyday experiences that any one might have.

If you concede that 'patriarchy' exists and are honest about how that has and continues to affect both men and women I can't see how you would be making such dismissive, shallow arguments tbh.

 

[Athos]

It's a weird argument tbh. It suggests that men having a sense of emotional attachment to their own children is 'unnatural' and purely social conditioning.

You know what the other side of this is...women as naturally 'born mothers', genetically carers and nurturers, inherently suited to x, y, z roles.

If I sniff the air hard enough I can smell the same logic wrt sex based expectations and gender roles that I am pretty sure created The Patriarchy in the first place.

No it doesn't. It suggests that the importance given to the biological rather than the social aspects of parenting is largely a product of the dominant mode of production. Which is literally the polar opposite of suggesting motherhood (as a gender expectation) is purely a function of biology.

 

[no-no]

No, I'm not telling the mechanic how to do his job. I was giving him the information he needed to do his job. To do his job he needed the history of the problem. I communicated that just as a male customer might. Once he figured out the problem for himself, he didn't need to spend 10 minutes telling me in excruciatingly patronizing detail things he already knew I was aware of.

You said it was more about your response but now you're complaining about his behaviour. Chances are he barely remembers the conversation and he's just going through it in detail as he does with every customer. I've experienced this from both sides of the conversation we all have probably.

It's irritating but I don't see where sexism comes into it.

 

[no-no]

I know, but my programming is to "keep sweet." I can't help myself.

We're all subject to social norms, some more than others. I know plenty of women who'd have just said "Yes yes, whatever can you just give me the bill"

 

[no-no]

If you concede that 'patriarchy' exists and are honest about how that has and continues to affect both men and women I can't see how you would be making such dismissive, shallow arguments tbh.

It exists but I don't think patriarchy is an accurate description of it. We all partake and build the society around us. Men suffer quite a bit due to the patriarchy too so it can't really be accurate can it?

 

[no-no]

So your assertion is that despite the fact that historically women have been subjugated by cultural, social and political dynamics on account of their biological sex, (a process that we still encounter each and every day in many forms) the experiences of 'placating' each other are still spread evenly?

No, as I said there are numerous legit examples of placation involving violence on this thread alone that men are unlikely to have to experience.

So they're not evenly spread at all, that doesn't mean that every other example of placation is due to sexism, aggression, coercion, whatever....

 

[campanula]

We all partake and build the society around us

But not in equal roles...with equal respect and equal access to power or even autonomy, eh? I am pretty sure there is a men under patriarchy thread which will indeed, (I imagine) deal with the stifling expectations on men as breadwinners etc etc...but right here, if you are really unable to see that women have been forced into a role which is no longer fit for purpose (ours, that is) I am not really sure what you are contributing to the thread apart from the usual negation of women's authentic experiences.
'The personal is the political' was always a part of 2nd wave feminist theory...which boils down to the little, everyday slights and slaps being a fair representation of the broader, wider world outside of the home and our individual quotidian experiences.

 

[wtfftw]

So your assertion is that despite the fact that historically women have been subjugated by cultural, social and political dynamics on account of their biological sex, (a process that we still encounter each and every day in many forms) the experiences of 'placating' each other are still spread evenly?

Yup. There's no power imbalance here.

 

[no-no]

But not in equal roles...with equal respect and equal access to power or even autonomy, eh? I am pretty sure there is a men under patriarchy thread which will indeed, (I imagine) deal with the stifling expectations on men as breadwinners etc etc...but right here, if you are really unable to see that women have been forced into a role which is no longer fit for purpose (ours, that is) I am not really sure what you are contributing to the thread apart from the usual negation of women's authentic experiences.

Our individual influence and status vary wildly along more vectors than just gender. But no I'm not saying that women haven't been forced into crappy roles, just that mundane examples of condescension and placation aren't necessarily evidence of it.

 

[Pickman's model]

Our individual influence and status vary wildly along more vectors than just gender. But no I'm not saying that women haven't been forced into crappy roles, just that mundane examples of condescension and placation aren't necessarily evidence of it.

I was going to tell you to stop posting shit but it's strangely enjoyable watching you dig yourself a great big hole

 

[no-no]

I was going to tell you to stop posting shit but it's strangely enjoyable watching you dig yourself a great big hole

Why am I in a hole?

because I think there are valid and invalid examples of the patriarchy?

 

[Pickman's model]

Why am I in a hole?

because I think there are valid and invalid examples of the patriarchy?

This would be the patriarchy you don't agree exists

 

[SheilaNaGig]

I don’t think it’s merely or only socially constructed. (And I don’t think talking about men necessarily sets women up as the opposite in a Mars/Venus way). I do wonder about an element of it though, (for both men and women, and it’s difficult to draw a precise line) given that we know how land and goods and inheritance has worked in the British culture since, what, the renaissance? (Precise dates of adoption of primogeniture unclear in my head, books on medieval property buried in a box, cba to dig them out).

I just find the idea that there is this deep overwhelming biological bond that a father feels for his actual biological offspring that supersedes all else, this is where love is essentially found to be unhelpfully....simplistic, judgemental, non-nuanced? Not sure of the right word....

The numbers have changed and may do again, but the point is that there are a number of men unknowingly raising children that are not their own. Not talking about men who knowingly take on another man’s kids, but men who are led to believe, and do believe, that the child they’re raising and loving and towards whom they feel genuine loyalty, is not in fact their offspring.

Paternity fraud - Wikipedia

 

[no-no]

This would be the patriarchy you don't agree exists

The patriarchy I believe deserve a more accurate name but I'll use the term out of convenience.....to placate perhaps

 

[SheilaNaGig]

How can it be an example of something women do to placate men if men do exactly the same thing to placate women. Isn't it just people placating each other? In this example it wasn't even placation, it was just not telling someone with far more experience how to do their job.

The connection between this sort of everyday social lubrication and domestic violence is tenuous.

You could just talk to me rather than assuming my intentions and getting sweary.

Patriarchal playground ffs

Look at these posts (below) from page two of this thread.

'In my experience, albeit not on topic...'?

Honestly though, unless you're making a point relevant to feminism I suggest starting a thread in knobbing and sobbing about treading on eggshells in a relationship

How about this: if you have personal lived experience of what it feels like as a man to have to be cautious or even fearful in conversation with your female partner, use that lived experience and then add in the potential for violence.



And ffs it is possible to say “Oh yeah, I think I know what you’re talking about here, it sounds like something I’m familiar with, I’d be interested to know in what ways it’s similar or different to what I’m experiencing, and whether any insight can be gained by making the comparison” etc...

Rather than “Well it happens to me so what about me. It happens to men too so why aren’t we talking about that. It happens to men so it isn’t especially significant for women”.

ETA Rebelda was more succinct than I.

[

 

[SheilaNaGig]

I see you haven't actually read the thread yet, you are not the first man on this thread to miss the point and argue this stuff.

It's really frustrating and fucking boring.

I know for a cold fact that some women are choosing not to get involved with these threads because we have to wade endlessly - and apparently repeatedly - through the defensive definition stage.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

I didn't say it was a product of their imaginations at all, why are you making things up?

I totally believe that you think having to placate men during everyday exchanges is an example of women being belittled, reduced, disbelieved and patronised. I just think you're wrong. and the reason I think you're wrong is because men do that too. men placate men and women. Women placate men and women.We all do it all the time.

I don't see how you can arrive at your conclusion without ignoring the lived experiences of everyone on this thread that's said "but we all do that"

It’s not an example of women being belittled. It’s an example of the ways in which women are made to twist and bend to accommodate men, because of the patriarchy. And it could be argued that women behave that way (making men feel like they need to walk on eggshells and making them feel unsure about where they stand and all that nasty shit) because women leaned how fucking effective it is as a mode of control, and then just use the same weapon themselves. Because we have no power of our own that is honoured respected and heard by men! We have to borrow the weapons and tools used against us, because just being straightforward and honest gets us a big fat zero in terms of response.

 

[Manter]

No, as I said there are numerous legit examples of placation involving violence on this thread alone that men are unlikely to have to experience.

So they're not evenly spread at all, that doesn't mean that every other example of placation is due to sexism, aggression, coercion, whatever....

Men also suffer due to patriarchy. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
Violence is not the only injustice people face. And if you had bothered to read the thread you’d have seen someone explain how little things enable and beget big things, all leading to explosive violence. It’s not just normal human interaction uninfluenced by anything or violence, with nothing in between

 

[SheilaNaGig]

I haven't read it cover to cover no. I've seen some legit examples involving creepy men or violent partners but I've also seen some examples that are just everyday experiences that any one might have.

Fucking read the thread. Please . All of this has been covered. You piling in here with your one man determination that the entire thread is wrong, and your lone voice is right is in itself a demonstration of the whole fucking problem!

 

[ViolentPanda]

and still lacking an explanation as to why

What does the thread title say?

 

[SheilaNaGig]

You said it was more about your response but now you're complaining about his behaviour. Chances are he barely remembers the conversation and he's just going through it in detail as he does with every customer. I've experienced this from both sides of the conversation we all have probably.

It's irritating but I don't see where sexism comes into it.

Of course he doesn’t remember the encounter. Because he barely noticed it at the time, because for him it’s entirely normal and not worthy of comment or remark or notice. Women notice this shit, we really do. We notice it and note it and sigh and roll our eyes and tell our women friends and go on to the next thing.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

We're all subject to social norms, some more than others. I know plenty of women who'd have just said "Yes yes, whatever can you just give me the bill"

And no man ever does that...

Oh Lady preserve me from this bullshit!