Feminism- experiences of man-whispering and the refusal to do so...

[SheilaNaGig]

The patriarchy I believe deserve a more accurate name but I'll use the term out of convenience.....to placate perhaps

What would you call it then.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

You said it was more about your response but now you're complaining about his behaviour. Chances are he barely remembers the conversation and he's just going through it in detail as he does with every customer. I've experienced this from both sides of the conversation we all have probably.

I'm sure he doesn't remember the exchange. Its his everyday experience that he'll get his ass kissed just so a woman can get her car fixed without risk of incurring some sort of retaliation. If you stray too outside the gender expectations, shit happens.

 

[Athos]

Ah ok - apols. Do you have anything I can read on that? I can't find anything online on this at all. I don't doubt you but I am interested.

eta my source says: "There probably was trade and ownership of tools but who the hell knows who was in charge of that?? When there is no available evidence people tend to automatically put their own modern constructs onto history. You can't just take modern concepts and place them onto societies that were totally different from ours, not just in terms of population densities and networks but also in terms of behaviours".

She was quite ranty - I edited Perhaps you are talking about later than her period though? (I don't know 100% when that is and can't ask at this late stage, but ends in -lithic)

The Origin of the Family, Private Property and the State - Wikipedia

Not without it's significant flaws, but an interesting start.

 

[Athos]

The comment/argument hasn't mentioned women though and my point is by simply stating that men's 'real' connection to their children is merely 'socially constructed' nicely sets women up as the opposite of what that BBC sounds thing is saying.

... I do think theorising and defining a man's relationship to offspring as merely 'functional and constructed' ...

Except nobody is saying that.

 

[no-no]

What does the thread title say?

I have accepted examples of man whispering, just not all of them.

 

[Pickman's model]

I have accepted examples of man whispering, just not all of them.

 

[no-no]

What would you call it then.

I have no idea but the term patriarchy doesn't seem right for a system where men and women both suffer due to the social expectations placed upon them does it?

 

[Pickman's model]

I have no idea but the term patriarchy doesn't seem right for a system where men and women both suffer due to the social expectations placed upon them does it?

you should just have stopped after 'i have no idea'

 

[Steel Icarus]

I have no idea but the term patriarchy doesn't seem right for a system where men and women both suffer due to the social expectations placed upon them does it?

There's no such thing as class because rich people get called posh on Twitter

 

[no-no]

There's no such thing as class because rich people get called posh on Twitter

Except I didn't say it doesn't exist, it's poorly named and some of the examples being given are things we all do.

 

[no-no]

I'm sure he doesn't remember the exchange. Its his everyday experience that he'll get his ass kissed just so a woman can get her car fixed without risk of incurring some sort of retaliation. If you stray too outside the gender expectations, shit happens.

You sound a bit bonkers here, he's a mechanic, no one is kissing his arse all day.

 

[Steel Icarus]

Except I didn't say it doesn't exist, it's poorly named and some of the examples being given are things we all do.

It's the same argument.
It's the exact same argument when people argue "honky" is the same as "n****r". It's about where the weight is, who gets the shitty end. This is basic stuff.

 

[no-no]

It's the same argument.
It's the exact same argument when people argue "honky" is the same as "n****r". It's about where the weight is, who gets the shitty end. This is basic stuff.

no it really isn't...calling someone a nigger is most definitely racist.

Explaining how you fixed someones car isn't. What should the mechanic have done? not investigated further and just swapped the part suggested by the code? and if he forgot who he'd spoken to earlier in the day what then? should he not give customers a run down of events just in case one of them mistakes it for condescension?

Christ, just argue the topic instead of reaching for the race card, what a terrible analogy.

 

[no-no]

Not all examples of sexism are valid.

Now there's a statement I'm sure we can all agree on right?

 

[Miss-Shelf]

One of the ways sexism manifests is women not being believed about big and small things they report

What would it be like to believe the female posters account of their experiences of exchanges at repair shops (as customers or mechanics)?

Allow the possibility that they might be right to sit with you, even if you don't see it just yet ....and ask your self why your formed opinion must top their lived experience

 

[no-no]

One of the ways sexism manifests is women not being believed about big and small things they report

What would it be like to believe the female posters account of their experiences of exchanges at repair shops (as customers or mechanics)?

Allow the possibility that they might be right to sit with you, even if you don't see it just yet ....and ask your self why your formed opinion must top their lived experience

I am willing to allow that possibility, that's why I'm asking for further clarification but so far no one has been able to tell me how they're able to define the mechanics motivations. Lets say he was being condescending rather than that he'd just forgotten who he'd spoken to. How do we know he's doing it because the customer is a woman?

If the claim was, this guy's a rude arsehole then sure that's believable but the claim is, this guy is rude because he's sexist and further it's a contributory factor of everything up to and including serious violence against women. That's a big claim that we shouldn't just believe off the bat surely?

 

[Athos]

I am willing to allow that possibility, that's why I'm asking for further clarification but so far no one has been able to tell me how they're able to define the mechanics motivations. Lets say he was being condescending rather than that he'd just forgotten who he'd spoken to. How do we know he's doing it because the customer is a woman?

If the claim was, this guy's a rude arsehole then sure that's believable but the claim is, this guy is rude because he's sexist and further it's a contributory factor of everything up to and including serious violence against women. That's a big claim that we shouldn't just believe off the bat surely?

Of course nobody can say for certain what was in that mechanic's mind, but people's experiences (particularly women's experiences) of how so many men treat men and women differently lead them to the reasonable conclusion that his conduct was more likely the product of misogyny than anything else. Nobody's trying to hang the bloke, so the balance of probabilities is a reasonable approach. If every individual instance required proof beyond reasonable doubt of what what is someone's mind, none could be proved, and we'd effectively be saying none exist, which we know is ridiculous.

 

[Miss-Shelf]

I am willing to allow that possibility, that's why I'm asking for further clarification but so far no one has been able to tell me how they're able to define the mechanics motivations. Lets say he was being condescending rather than that he'd just forgotten who he'd spoken to. How do we know he's doing it because the customer is a woman?

If the claim was, this guy's a rude arsehole then sure that's believable but the claim is, this guy is rude because he's sexist and further it's a contributory factor of everything up to and including serious violence against women. That's a big claim that we shouldn't just believe off the bat surely?

You're not going to get the evidence requested for a variety of reasons

I'm not going to tell you what to do but I can share what I do when I don't fully believe something but others are certain it is so ...I believe myself and the other person. Not equally but even allowing 1% of belief for the other persons account starts to allow dialogue in my mind.. I argue about in my head for a while adding in more evidence often from similar situations until I know more about what might be valid.

I know that reads a bit patronising. It's not meant to

 

[no-no]

Of course nobody can say for certain what was in that mechanic's mind, but people's experiences (particularly women's experiences) of how so many men treat men and women differently lead them to the reasonable conclusion that his conduct was more likely the product of misogyny than anything else. Nobody's trying to hang the bloke, so the balance of probabilities is a reasonable approach. If every individual instance required proof beyond reasonable doubt of what what is someone's mind, none could be proved, and we'd effectively be saying none exist, which we know is ridiculous.

You're talking about stereotypes here, i'm not sure a conclusion based on stereotypes is reasonable esp when it's an everyday interaction being presented as a contributing factor in domestic violence and being put into the same category as domestic violence.

 

[no-no]

You're not going to get the evidence requested for a variety of reasons

I'm not going to tell you what to do but I can share what I do when I don't fully believe something but others are certain it is so ...I believe myself and the other person. Not equally but even allowing 1% of belief for the other persons account starts to allow dialogue in my mind.. I argue about in my head for a while adding in more evidence often from similar situations until I know more about what might be valid.

I know that reads a bit patronising. It's not meant to

That's fine, it didn't sound patronising at all, we're online, you don't know me, no problem and it's good advice anyhow.

That's why I'm asking for clarification really but I still don't see anything unique to the female experience here (i'm talking about the everyday interactions obvs, not the violence) perhaps women get it more often I'm not sure though. ime rude arseholes are equal opportunity arseholes.

 

[Athos]

You're talking about stereotypes here, i'm not sure a conclusion based on stereotypes is reasonable esp when it's an everyday interaction being presented as a contributing factor in domestic violence and being put into the same category as domestic violence.

Archetype not stereotype. More harm flows from not recognising the wider issue.

 

[Athos]

That's fine, it didn't sound patronising at all, we're online, you don't know me, no problem and it's good advice anyhow.

That's why I'm asking for clarification really but I still don't see anything unique to the female experience here (i'm talking about the everyday interactions obvs, not the violence) perhaps women get it more often I'm not sure though. ime rude arseholes are equal opportunity arseholes.

Have you stopped to think why so many women do see it?

 

[Manter]

I am willing to allow that possibility, that's why I'm asking for further clarification but so far no one has been able to tell me how they're able to define the mechanics motivations. Lets say he was being condescending rather than that he'd just forgotten who he'd spoken to. How do we know he's doing it because the customer is a woman?

If the claim was, this guy's a rude arsehole then sure that's believable but the claim is, this guy is rude because he's sexist and further it's a contributory factor of everything up to and including serious violence against women. That's a big claim that we shouldn't just believe off the bat surely?

My mum went to buy a car and she was asked if she’d like her husband to have a look before she committed. I told my (ex) other half the car was making a particular noise at x speed at y gear and therefore I thought it needed to go to the garage. He took it out for a drive to find out what is was doing and came in and said ‘it’s making a particular noise at x speed at y gear and I think we need to take it the garage’. I was going on a roadtrip with a colleague and the hire car place handed him the car keys without asking or even looking at me. My best mate was hearing an application for funding an the applicants kept looking at and addressing the bloke in with her- the grad trainee- rather than at her- the department head. A builder who came last week to quote for splitting a lighting ring kept trying to talk to my partner- who wouldn’t know which end of a screwdriver to hold- rather than me....

I could go on and on and on and on. So could most women. And I have even more examples of people talking to me not The Northerner about child rearing, food, family events, school runs etc.

And this doesn’t mean these are all shitty people. They are people living in a patriarchal society who have internalised some really deep seated assumptions about who has responsibility for and understanding of technology, finance, manual labour, caring, cleaning, nurturing and so on.

And half the time we don’t do much more than roll our eyes, gently correct or redirect, pass a message on... because this is constant and pervasive, and exhausting and we have to pick our battles, and be careful we aren’t aggressive or bitchy or confrontational or emotional as then it becomes *even more* difficult to navigate our daily lives.

So please spare me the ‘just doing his job’ schtick

 

[no-no]

Have you stopped to think why so many women do see it?

I'm not sure more women experience this than men. There are plenty of men on this thread saying they experience the same for example.

 

[Athos]

I'm not sure more women experience this than men. There are plenty of men on this thread saying they experience the same for example.

Have you stopped to think why women think it's the product if patriarchy?

 

[no-no]

Have you stopped to think why women think it's the product if patriarchy?

Of course I just don't buy their explanations when it comes to everyday rudeness being sexist.

 

[Santino]

Of course I listen to women, I just don't believe them.

 

[Athos]

Of course I just don't buy their explanations when it comes to everyday rudeness being sexist.

Do you think they're mistaken? Or dishonest? Why do you think that? Why are they like that?

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

You sound a bit bonkers here, he's a mechanic, no one is kissing his arse all day.

You aren't helping yourself out much here.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Of course I just don't buy their explanations when it comes to everyday rudeness being sexist.

You don't have to 'buy' them. They are not for sale. You do have to accept them though, because they are true and real. What is the pay off for you in minimising in this way?