Feminism and a world designed for men

[8ball]

It can cause real anxiety. Even makes me not bother going out sometimes.

That's really shit.

edit: sometimes on nights out, decisions get made based on the toilets at a certain place, plans may change etc. but actually cancelling things isn't something I've experienced with friends. Then again, it's probably influencing who comes out in ways I don't know - it's not like anyone is likely to say that's the reason for not coming out. I find Wetherspoons pubs, now I come to think of it, seem to have too many cubicles in the men's bit. I wonder whether that's the result of some committee arguments over how many are needed for each gender, with someone refusing to back down on absolute equal numbers.

 

[Mrs Miggins]

It must take some real prior planning of when and where you're likely to need a wee. It's not like public loos are terribly abundant these days either.

It is definitely a factor to take into consideration when there's a potential night out at the other end of the Northern Line. Knowing I'll be dying for a pee all the way home puts me right off.

And er, not "terribly abundant" ? Try non-existant. Those pop up loos that cater only for men really fuck me off. Where are we supposed to have a slash? Oh yeah - wait until you get home.

 

[8ball]

It is definitely a factor to take into consideration when there's a potential night out at the other end of the Northern Line. Knowing I'll be dying for a pee all the way home puts me right off.

And er, not "terribly abundant" ? Try non-existant. Those pop up loos that cater only for men really fuck me off. Where are we supposed to have a slash? Oh yeah - wait until you get home.

Yeah, I was being a bit sarcastic with the "not terribly abundant" thing.
Those pop up loos are really about stopping men pissing in all manner of random places (and so things become even more unjust because of women being better behaved). I took a look at a couple of "better public loos" sites, and the ones I saw didn't say anything about these specific issues, just that there are not enough of them. I'd support any campaign for making things better, but the normal search terms are just bringing up arguments about gender-neutral toilets.

 

[Mrs Miggins]

Yeah, I was being a bit sarcastic with the "not terribly abundant" thing.

Those pop up loos are really about stopping men pissing in all manner of random places (and so things become even more unjust because of women being better behaved).

We're not better behaved by the way....we just can't piss in the street without getting semi-naked. If we could piss in the street as easily as men, we would. Trust me

 

[ElizabethofYork]

It probably sounds a bit trivial moaning about toilets, but it can really cause problems in so many places. Theatre/gigs/concerts - massive queue for the ladies in the intervals. Shopping centres - massive queues for the ladies. Airports - massive queue for the ladies. Train stations - no toilets. Festivals - don't even mention them.

 

[8ball]

It probably sounds a bit trivial moaning about toilets, but it can really cause problems in so many places. Theatre/gigs/concerts - massive queue for the ladies in the intervals. Shopping centres - massive queues for the ladies. Airports - massive queue for the ladies. Train stations - no toilets. Festivals - don't even mention them.

If it's stopping you doing what you want to do socially, or is even a significant factor, then I don't think that's trivial. It's a direct impingement on freedom.

 

[Mrs Miggins]

I also don't think it's trivial. It is an enormous pain and a very obvious example of women's needs just not being adequately catered for.

 

[MickiQ]

male clothing has been cleverly designed so that you don't have to strip half off before being able to pee which means a massive time saving. Women might have many layers of garment to be removed before going to the loo.

Serious Question (though it might not seem so) Why is that you think? There are parts of the world of course where women are given little choice in what to wear in public but here in the West, there are no (or at least far fewer) restrictions and I suspect most designers of clothes for women these days are probably actually women themselves.
So even allowing for the inevitable forced on the designers by their customers biology, Why isn't is more being done to make women's outfits more practical?

 

[Pickman's model]

Woman lose out more

Yeh that's what I said

 

[Mrs Miggins]

Serious Question (though it might not seem so) Why is that you think? There are parts of the world of course where women are given little choice in what to wear in public but here in the West, there are no (or at least far fewer) restrictions and I suspect most designers of clothes for women these days are probably actually women themselves.
So even allowing for the inevitable forced on the designers by their customers biology, Why isn't is more being done to make women's outfits more practical?

I don't know. Someone smarter than me will have to answer that.
It just seems rather handy the way trousers favour whipping out your todger for a quick and easy pee.

 

[Poot]

Look. It takes women longer to go to the loo. Not because we choose to, it just does. So let's work with that fact and provide twice as many loos for women. It's not rocket science!

 

[smmudge]

I didn't realise until I saw floor plans for our office recently that men have 25% more facilities to pee than women do. And many areas (admin and call centre) have more women than men.

 

[weepiper]

In my last job I worked in a large shop. The staffroom was in a separate block around the corner on another street entirely. There are two toilets in the staffroom and one in the shop itself (not for use by customers, just staff) When I started there was no sanitary bin in any of the toilets (I used to wrap my tampon wrappers etc in paper towel and surreptitiously stick them in the big communal wheelie bin on the street). When another woman started they finally realised they had to provide something. Of course they put the bin in one of the toilets in the staffroom, so we had to traipse round the corner every time we needed to deal. This was a business employing two women and forty odd men.

 

[Poot]

Slightly related: a conversation today with a colleague began with him saying 'you know those big posters in the loos that tell staff how to behave on site..?'

Er, no?

 

[Winot]

Urban75 has been an education for me in relation to the problems of dealing with periods. I think Mrs W must have struck lucky over the years. I appreciate the lesson particularly as I have 2 daughters.

 

[mango5]

It's tricky when women start talking about bleeding and continence issues because it really rams home how we live in a world designed for men. Following Pickman's model's point about equal floor space and inequality, it seems as if there simply isn't enough room for women to deal with everyday health and sanitation.

 

[Pickman's model]

It's tricky when women start talking about bleeding and continence issues because it really rams home how we live in a world designed for men. Following Pickman's model's point about equal floor space and inequality, it seems as if there simply isn't enough room for women to deal with everyday health and sanitation.

Toilets whether for men or women should receive greater attention so adequate facilities are provided for all, even in flagship buildings like the British museum's great court the often lengthy queues for women show the inadequacy of provision. It's a disgrace that equal space should ever have been supposed to mean any genuine equality of service

 

[mango5]

Equality of service is really not the solution when equality is determined by men. Queueing is a drastically overplayed issue because most visible to men. Provision and positioning of sanitary facilities is of more concern, as illustrated on recent pages.

 

[Poot]

Equality of service is really not the solution when equality is determined by men. Queueing is a drastically overplayed issue because most visible to men. Provision and positioning of sanitary facilities is of more concern, as illustrated on recent pages.

Yes! The visibility of the queue! 'Look, they're queuing, it must be because they take too long'. End of thought process.

 

[weepiper]

Yes! The visibility of the queue! 'Look, they're queuing, it must be because they take too long'. End of thought process.

No idea that we have a third reason to need the toilet... Men only need a cubicle for a shit. We need one all the time, and often we don't even 'need the toilet' in any way they can identify with at all.

 

[friendofdorothy]

So even allowing for the inevitable forced on the designers by their customers biology, Why isn't is more being done to make women's outfits more practical?

I don't know. Someone smarter than me will have to answer that.
It just seems rather handy the way trousers favour whipping out your todger for a quick and easy pee.

Longish skirt, with stockings and no knickers used to work for me when I was younger and not on a period. Made it possible to piss into those trough urinals in the mens loos too, but that was in women-only dyke clubs with no men about. Didn't seem to be a popular choice clothing choice with any other women I knew.

Short of carrying a she-wee thingy about - women will always have to remove some clothing to piss/deal with periods.

 

[kabbes]

The depressing thing is that (getting heteronormative for a second for the sake of simplicity of the point) most men do actually live with a woman and so for almost every woman who experiences a problem, there should be a man who has empathy and understanding for what that lived experience involves. The fact that this is not the case speaks volumes about the level of true empathetic communication that exists in most relationships.

 

[MickiQ]

Longish skirt, with stockings and no knickers used to work for me when I was younger and not on a period. Made it possible to piss into those trough urinals in the mens loos too, but that was in women-only dyke clubs with no men about. Didn't seem to be a popular choice clothing choice with any other women I knew.

Short of carrying a she-wee thingy about - women will always have to remove some clothing to piss/deal with periods.

Mildly impressed with this, not certain I should be but I am. Many years ago the Q's were at a public loo where the ladies was closed so my son and I stood guard whilst his mother and sisters used the gents. Mrs Q was fascinated by the steel trough and the idea that men just stood and pissed against the wall like dogs (her words). I apologised for the state of them but she assured me that ladies public loos are usually pretty disgusting as well.

 

[ViolentPanda]

There is something I feel might be a nasty MRA meme called "learn to code" all over twitter at the moment. I wonder if there is reference to this fact or if it is pure reference to gamergate

Yep, I had a face-to-face row with an MRA about this, upset his flabby white arse by mentioning Ada Lovelace, who he'd never heard of. Told him to get out his phone and Google her, and then to shut his misogynistic, ignorant gob, because idiots annoy me.

 

[ViolentPanda]

On the whole kitchen height issue. I decided that my very home made kitchen would have no high presses at all. At 5ft 2inches it was going to be impossible to reach anything other than things on the lower part of a wall press si I ditched that completely.
I've only got the lower presses and worktop. And I stacked the 4 presses(2x2)that were meant to go on the wall...in order to make a set of low shelves sat on the floor at the other side of the room.

My late wife was 5ft. When we re-did our kitchen, I lowered all the counter-tops and cupboards by 170mm, and lowered wall-mounted cupboards to 1300mm. No hardship at all to do, either.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I had a California surfer dude on mine and it was hated by so many people .

"Like, you might want to hang a left round about now, man".

 

[ViolentPanda]

Hopefully it doesn't come over all MRA to suggest that men suffer from the patriarchy of pockets as well. We're all too often conscripted into the role of walking handbags for the women in our lives who can't fit their keys, phone or wallet into their own jeans.

Greebo loved it when combats/cargo trousers came into fashion. Pockets galore!!! She no longer needed a fuck-off big shoulder bag for her stuff!

 

[ViolentPanda]

I don't buy clothes I don't like but the shops are nonetheless full of them.

Chuckling to myself right now, remembering your "pink pens" critique a few years back.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Its not just products and objects that are not designed for women, but education, politics, heath care, systems, ways of seeing, they way the work place is organised, the way the world works - I want us to challenge why things are as they are - how and why in these supposedly post feminist 21st century days is the world still isn't designed for women. How do we challenge it?

Greebo picked French, German, Physics, Biology and Chemistry as A levels. Guess which she got the most encouragement from teachers for?

Yep, languages. The science teachers at her school asked her "are you sure?". It was only after her Dad had one of his nuclear strops at the head, that the teachers stopped trying to put her off.

 

[Pickman's model]

Equality of service is really not the solution when equality is determined by men. Queueing is a drastically overplayed issue because most visible to men. Provision and positioning of sanitary facilities is of more concern, as illustrated on recent pages.

Yeh. You seem to be taking issue with something I have observed rather than proposed, ignoring my 'adequate facilities should be provided for all'. Adequate for women involves, as you say, access to sanitary facilities, to sufficient cubicles to accommodate users' needs, etc etc. It involves placing women at the front of the design process at an early stage of the planning process, whereas at the moment architects, mostly men, all too often impose their views on clients and provide designs which don't meet how buildings actually work or what people actually need. Where there are queues it *could* suggest people are taking too long. But it would indicate to me rather there are likely to be too few cubicles or basins or soap dispensers or hand driers, or problems with provision of sanitary facilities - that there's a design flaw in the facility than in the users. Having seen the same flaws in design in gents toilets in buildings both here and abroad I wouldn't be in the slightest surprised there were extra faults in the ladies.