European Elections 2019

[Kaka Tim]

There is a massive loss of trust amongst some working class communities in the labour party - this goes back to Blair and brexit was a consequence of that. Corbyn has failed to make any real impact on reversing it.
That battle needs to be won at community level - communities have been atomised, people are isolated - that is where the work needs to be done - via building co-operative, mutalist networks right down at grassroots level - stuff that actually achieves something. That is a long slog - but it absolutely needs to be done - some of this stuff is already happening but it needs much more priority. Basically its about tackling the long term fallout from thatchers decimation of w/class communtiys. (pet subject this - as its essentially what my job is)
Winning over demoralised, isloated, atomised and resentful working class voters by offering some lukewarm version of brexit that nobody believes in is utterly pointless and will just alienate the much bigger bloc of labour voters who support remain (many - most - of whom are working class as well - especially amongst younger people) .
I dont see how backing remain necessarily means abandoning working class people who voted leave - its a false and toxic dichotomy. Build solidarity and common purpose from the ground up - it is the only way forward. Brexit is just a massive and divisive distraction from that.

 

[SpackleFrog]

There is a massive loss of trust amongst some working class communities in the labour party - this goes back to Blair and brexit was a consequence of that. Corbyn has failed to make any real impact on reversing it.

Well hang on, he was making some progress. He stopped making progress when the right wing of the PLP found an effective way to attack him on the issues of Brexit and anti-semitism. But he started off reasonably well.

 

[kebabking]

The Corbynite Labour councillor - who lost his seat in the LE's - I know, who reckoned he'd knocked on 2,000 doors in the campaign and was sick of hearing the word 'brexit', entirely takes the view that not one previous Labour voter had who voted Leave still believed that Labour intended to respect the referendum result. Some still voted Labour at the LE's, some said they'd never return, some said they'd return once brexit was done, some said they'd simply stop voting and some said they'd vote for other parties, and some were rather rude - the big news however was that, to echo SpackleFrog, all of them believed that Labour was now a remain party, whatever artistic form of words it used to dance on the head of a pin.

Lots, and lots of hostility to that - proper visceral feelings of betrayal.

 

[redsquirrel]

Labour hasn't got a credible leave policy - not one that is going to appeal to actual leavers. They cant "outbrexit" the tories - never mind farage.

What is an "actual leaver"? No one is claiming they can, or should, "outbrexit" the tories people are saying there are longtime loyal Labour voters that support leave, and that these people are an electorally important constituency.

That battle needs to be won at community level - communities have been atomised, people are isolated - that is where the work needs to be done - via building co-operative, mutalist networks right down at grassroots level - stuff that actually achieves something. That is a long slog - but it absolutely needs to be done - some of this stuff is already happening but it needs much more priority.

How the hell are you going to do that when you've just told those communities that they don't count, that their views are wrong and so, once again, should be ignored?

 

[Proper Tidy]

The Corbynite Labour councillor - who lost his seat in the LE's - I know, who reckoned he'd knocked on 2,000 doors in the campaign and was sick of hearing the word 'brexit', entirely takes the view that not one previous Labour voter had who voted Leave still believed that Labour intended to respect the referendum result. Some still voted Labour at the LE's, some said they'd never return, some said they'd return once brexit was done, some said they'd simply stop voting and some said they'd vote for other parties, and some were rather rude - the big news however was that, to echo SpackleFrog, all of them believed that Labour was now a remain party, whatever artistic form of words it used to dance on the head of a pin.

Lots, and lots of hostility to that - proper visceral feelings of betrayal.

Aye, from the people I know, they've somehow ended up in position that leave voters see LP as remain and remain voters see them as leave - agree with spacklefrog that in the former scenario, it's because the noise from the 2nd ref labour MPs (and here in Wales pretty much every AM and MP) is greater than the actual position (also tbf because it's a simpler message)

 

[Proper Tidy]

Shared character of both is a lack of trust in labour's position I suppose

 

[killer b]

It's a simpler message, but also Labour really fucked up their messaging. There's a faint trace of the drum they could have been loudly banging in their EU election manifesto, but it's barely been communicated, and when Corbyn has been interviewed he's just tetchily trotted out the same line he's been trotting out for a couple of years that sounds evasive and no-one who needs persuading believes.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

IWCA post on the aftermath below:


25 years ago, the deputy leader of the Labour Party Roy Hattersley declared that the ‘working class would vote Labour whatever the party did.’ Strike one. 15 years later, Guardian columnist Nick Cohen insisted that ‘Europe votes fascist, we don’t’. Within twelve months the BNP would take close to a million votes in the European elections. Strike two.

A decade on, and almost to the day, Guardian columnist Martin Kettle would suggest Britain's current political climate is reminiscent of Weimar Germany, with the implication being that in opposing right wing populism the liberal left were taking the role of the ‘resistance’. Of course while appearing glamorous in hindsight, the ugly truth is that out of a population of 40 million as few as 200,000 were actively involved in the French Resistance, with the working class disproportionately represented. As for the Weimar Republic analogy the less said about that the better, as the near decade long fight against the Brownshirts from 1924 onwards was conducted exclusively by the communist and to a lesser extent social democratic parties (see the 1932 Battle of Altona for what that could involve), with the middle classes and their parties either sitting it out or cheerleading for the other side. Strike three.

Flaunting the same lack of awareness, fellow Guardian columnist Gary Younge asserted just days before the Euro elections that the populist “electoral victories are largely but not exclusively the products of age-old prejudices: not because everyone who voted for them was racist, but because all the racists who did go the polls voted for them. The intensity of that racism is now growing as the victors use their podiums and dispatch boxes to amplify their bigotry by giving confidence and licence for people to spread their poison. Bigotry once embedded in a political culture is difficult to excise.” Indeed. After all, what other possible reason could there be for large swathes of any country’s population to resent and resist the impact of a new liberal driven globalisation but out and out prejudice? Strike four.

Now the liberal left has enjoyed cultural hegemony for the last forty years. Which meant for four decades a liberal agenda, that involved first and foremost the working class as a whole being kicked to the kerb, while at the same time amplifying and inflating the importance of every possible racial, sexual, gender and more recently faith based difference, has been zealously promoted with the assurance that one last push would lead to the sunlit uplands. But, as militant anti-fascism has long warned, what we have is the whirlwind being reaped instead. Accordingly, once the left tire of bullshitting each other that the Euro elections were in fact a tremendous victory and return to their day job of pointing the finger and apportioning blame to everyone else, ‘Do you ever think it might be you?’ is the first question the rest of us ought to put to them.

 

[Mr Moose]

The Corbynite Labour councillor - who lost his seat in the LE's - I know, who reckoned he'd knocked on 2,000 doors in the campaign and was sick of hearing the word 'brexit', entirely takes the view that not one previous Labour voter had who voted Leave still believed that Labour intended to respect the referendum result. Some still voted Labour at the LE's, some said they'd never return, some said they'd return once brexit was done, some said they'd simply stop voting and some said they'd vote for other parties, and some were rather rude - the big news however was that, to echo SpackleFrog, all of them believed that Labour was now a remain party, whatever artistic form of words it used to dance on the head of a pin.

Lots, and lots of hostility to that - proper visceral feelings of betrayal.

Extraordinary this feeling that this is ‘betrayal’. Not being granted the Tory and Right wing media solution to the squabbling of two factions of elites is ‘betrayal’. About something most people gave nary a shit about 10 years ago.

 

[gosub]

But if those voters are voting on the basis of supporting brexit - then they are lost to labour anyway. But so are the those who are voting on the basis of opposing brexit. The latter group can be won back - the former cant. Its shit - but labour is in a bind and there is no good outcome - just damage limitation.
Labour has to go remain and reform and do its best to convince w/class brexit voters that their interests are served by labour government's other policies.

I'll bite, what is the nature of this reform from within the EU of which you speak.?

 

[kebabking]

Extraordinary this feeling that this is ‘betrayal’. Not being granted the Tory and Right wing media solution to the squabbling of two factions of elites is ‘betrayal’. About something most people gave nary a shit about 10 years ago.

Woooooooooooosssshhhhhhhhhhhhh....

Again, remain bubble.

The hostility doesn't have it's basis in the remain/leave argument, it has its basis in the 'you asked me a question, I gave you an answer, and now you don't like that answer you're back-pedaling'.

It's a simple as that.

Of course it now is deeply entangled in the leave/remain argument, the bubbling culture war, the disconnect between a London focused party elite (sound familiar?) and a hinterland who feel not just not listened to but deliberately ignored, insulted and marginalised.

 

[redsquirrel]

Extraordinary this feeling that this is ‘betrayal’. Not being granted the Tory and Right wing media solution to the squabbling of two factions of elites is ‘betrayal’. About something most people gave nary a shit about 10 years ago.

They been betrayed, patronised and taken for granted by the LP for 40+ years, they can see exactly what Mason/Thornberry/Blairs crap is.

 

[Mr Moose]

They been betrayed, patronised and taken for granted by the LP for 40+ years, they can see exactly what Mason/Thornberry/Blairs crap is.

I’m merely noting how deep the feeling is to take such an utterly feeble prospect as Brexit and put such heart and soul into it.

 

[redsquirrel]

Are you not reading what I and kebabking have posted? This another example of the long held (and entirely correct) belief that they are ignored and dismissed by the same people that have caused the damage their communities have suffered from.

 

[Mr Moose]

Woooooooooooosssshhhhhhhhhhhhh....

Again, remain bubble.

The hostility doesn't have it's basis in the remain/leave argument, it has its basis in the 'you asked me a question, I gave you an answer, and now you don't like that answer you're back-pedaling'.

It's a simple as that.

Of course it now is deeply entangled in the leave/remain argument, the bubbling culture war, the disconnect between a London focused party elite (sound familiar?) and a hinterland who feel not just not listened to but deliberately ignored, insulted and marginalised.

This is a bit vapid considering how it took nearly 30 years of wall to wall negativity to get people interested in the EU. It wasn’t just any question. It was the only one permitted.

What about that culture war, which is essentially the ruling class wishing to be free of any fetters and coopting working class nationalism to that cause?

 

[redsquirrel]

Your last few posts are an excellent example of this patronisation.

How dare you feel betrayed! You didn't even care about this issue until you were brainwashed into supporting it.*

*Which conveniently ignores the widespread dislike of the EU that has been present from the start - the 1975 referendum and LP opposition to the EU never happened.

 

[Mr Moose]

Your last few posts are an excellent example of this patronisation.

How dare you feel betrayed! You didn't even care about this issue until you were brainwashed into supporting it.*

*Which conveniently ignores the widespread dislike of the EU that has been present from the start - the 1975 referendum and LP opposition to the EU never happened.

You tend towards generalisation on this. There is not unequivocally one working class voice. Scotland clearly thought differently, working class BME voters were more in favour of Remain. Ultimately, without something else like a new mandate from a GE, the result should be honoured, even if weakly.

But there is no reason why it cannot be debated. What was patronising was to marketise everything so that the very means of existence become beyond reach. Not to disagree over this.

 

[Kaka Tim]

What is an "actual leaver"? No one is claiming they can, or should, "outbrexit" the tories people are saying there are longtime loyal Labour voters that support leave, and that these people are an electorally important constituency.
How the hell are you going to do that when you've just told those communities that they don't count, that their views are wrong and so, once again, should be ignored?

But Labour cant adopt any sort of credible leave position that any leave voter will believe. all it would do is further alienate the majority of their voters who support remain. Its an unwinnable battle.
Which leads to the second point - yeah - its fucking shit and it will make it more difficult. But the damage was done by people been asked to vote on something that cant be delivered. There is no good way out of this. The least shit path is for labour to go remain and then try and win back the trust of those who feel betrayed by that.
And yeah - the remain push from labour has been used by the anti-corbyn faction - but its also overwhelmingly the position of the membership - and most of the new voters who voted labour because of Corbyn.
Going remain is the quickest way out of the fucking mess - take the hit and move on. The present position means labour gets shot by both sides.
The only other alternative is that labour goes fully leave - which - as well being politically impossible for labour given the views of most of its mps,the membership and most of its supporters - would just lead them further into a quagmire.

 

[redsquirrel]

Where is the debate? You've literally said that Labour leave voters are wrong to feel betrayed because they were not bothered about this issue 10 years ago. That's not a debate, that's you patronising and dismissing millions of people.

EDIT: At Moose not KT.

 

[redsquirrel]

But Labour cant adopt any sort of credible leave position that any leave voter will believe. all it would do is further alienate the majority of their voters who support remain. Its an unwinnable battle.
Which leads to the second point - yeah - its fucking shit and it will make it more difficult. But the damage was done by people been asked to vote on something that cant be delivered. There is no good way out of this. The least shit path is for labour to go remain and then try and win back the trust of those who feel betrayed by that.
...
Going remain is the quickest way out of the fucking mess - take the his and move on. The present position means labour gets shot by both sides.

Again I ask for evidence? Where is the evidence that Labour cannot have a position that is palatable to enough Leave voters that they will stay with Labour.

Your position is effectively Mason's isn't it? A position that leads to Labour becoming the PS (France) or SPD (Germany), parties that are dying.

 

[Kaka Tim]

I'll bite, what is the nature of this reform from within the EU of which you speak.?

Challenge the neo-liberal agenda (for which the UK was always the biggest cheerleader) of the EU alongside like minded MEPs and government. Yeah- im not holding my breath either - but its a more credible position pretending that the EU is some cuddly, feel good club.
We are where we are. Brexit needs to be killed off before anything can be done. Its a toxic irrelevance.
I am now earning less for the same job i was doing 10 years ago. I see people begging everytime i leave my door. There isn't even a kids playground within a mile of my house. You have to wait weeks to see a fucking doctor etc etc etc. Fucking fuck brexit -

this is the shit that needs sorting.

 

[Kaka Tim]

Again I ask for evidence? Where is the evidence that Labour cannot have a position that is palatable to enough Leave voters that they will stay with Labour.

Your position is effectively Mason's isn't it? A position that leads to Labour becoming the PS (France) or SPD (Germany), parties that are dying.

because you would struggle to find a single leave voter who believes labour supports brexit. Please outline how they can be convinced labour does without destroying the party and losing half of it voters.

 

[redsquirrel]

because you would struggle to find a single leave voter who believes labour supports brexit. Please outline how they can be convinced labour does without destroying the party and losing half of it voters.

Argghh. Come on read what people are posting.

People don't vote on only one issue, the fact that Labour won (just) Ashfield shows that longtime Labour voters that want to Leave the EU can find LP that leans Remain palatable. But a LP that goes full on for Remain is a very different kettle of fish, something that some won't put up with.

Depends what you mean by the past. 2017 voters, heavily remain. But what about typical labour voters for 15, 10, what about its traditional post war base, does labour just write them off

Labour still has 25%-33% of its support coming from Leave voters. They know that Labour leans towards Remain but they can still support a party that will at least attempt to accommodate them.

 

[belboid]

But Labour cant adopt any sort of credible leave position that any leave voter will believe.

two-thirds of leave voters didn't vote for the BP or UKIP last week. A few voted Labour, a few tory, but most stayed at home. They can still be convinced that Labour is at least trying on their behalf, not just ignoring them and considering them worthwhile collateral damage.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Challenge the neo-liberal agenda (for which the UK was always the biggest cheerleader) of the EU alongside like minded MEPs and government. Yeah- im not holding my breath either - but its a more credible position pretending that the EU is some cuddly, feel good club.
We are where we are. Brexit needs to be killed off before anything can be done. Its a toxic irrelevance.
I am now earning less for the same job i was doing 10 years ago. I see people begging everytime i leave my door. There isn't even a kids playground within a mile of my house. You have to wait weeks to see a fucking doctor etc etc etc. Fucking fuck brexit -

this is the shit that needs sorting.

I haven't seen a single party promote a single policy for the European Parliament in this election just gone, never mind talk about challenging the neoliberal agenda. Where is this pro Remain pro Reform movement/party going to come from?

 

[Kaka Tim]

Labour still has 25%-33% of its support coming from Leave voters. They know that Labour leans towards Remain but they can still support a party that will at least attempt to accommodate them.

So does this mean you think its credible for labour to keep to its present policy? Its shedding votes to both sides - it has to go one way or the other. The fence sitting fudge was probably the least shit position (but still shit) for multiple reasons - but no more. All the polling and the Local and Euro votes show that.

 

[Kaka Tim]

They can still be convinced that Labour is at least trying on their behalf, not just ignoring them and considering them worthwhile collateral damage.

How? "labour will negotiate a better deal than a tory brexit"?
Any recent polling on how many leavers still support labour?
The tory party is about to move to "no deal" - how can labour oppose that (as they must and should) and still be seen by leavers as being on their side?
Labour needs to argue for remain and try and change people's minds - rather than pretending it will enact brexit in some hypothetical future where they are in government.
Ah - fuck - this is depressing ...

 

[gosub]

Challenge the neo-liberal agenda (for which the UK was always the biggest cheerleader) of the EU alongside like minded MEPs and government. Yeah- im not holding my breath either - but its a more credible position pretending that the EU is some cuddly, feel good club.
We are where we are. Brexit needs to be killed off before anything can be done. Its a toxic irrelevance.
I am now earning less for the same job i was doing 10 years ago. I see people begging everytime i leave my door. There isn't even a kids playground within a mile of my house. You have to wait weeks to see a fucking doctor etc etc etc. Fucking fuck brexit -

this is the shit that needs sorting.

SO Brexit needs to be killed off, so we can can stay in and help transform the EU away from being the type of thing the UK was the biggest cheer leader for.. Having a Commission President no one in the UK voted for might even come in handy

 

[Kaka Tim]

SO Brexit needs to be killed off, so we can can stay in and help transform the EU away from being the type of thing the UK was the biggest cheer leader for.. Having a Commission President no one in the UK voted for might even come in handy

brexit needs to be killed off so real shit can be addressed. We don't vote for the president of the WTO or the IMF either. Build fucking council houses and fund the NHS - stop fucking about with brexit. (labour's next election slogan?)

 

[SpackleFrog]

brexit needs to be killed off so real shit can be addressed. We don't vote for the president of the WTO or the IMF either. Build fucking council houses and fund the NHS - stop fucking about with brexit. (labour's next election slogan?)

To kill it off you're gonna have to convince people a neoliberal regional trade block is a good idea. Don't you think that's sort of counter-intuitive?