European Elections 2019

[Raheem]

Yes - how about a Brexit where we take the key infrastructure of the economy into public ownership, so we can plan for people's needs and give them decent schools and food and healthcare and create green jobs? How about promising to scrap the hostile environment and offer mutual free movement to the EU, without the posted workers directive? How about saying we won't allow the NHS to be pillaged by multi nationals? How about saying we will collaborate and co-operate with left govts in the EU and around the world?

Nothing not to support there, and there are lots of other positive things we could do. But it's what we wouldn't be able to do that makes it tricky. How about also preserving some sort of manufacturing sector in the UK, for instance?

 

[SpackleFrog]

Nothing not to support there, and there are lots of other positive things we could do. But it's what we wouldn't be able to do that makes it tricky. How about also preserving some sort of manufacturing sector in the UK, for instance?

No, that's the only way we could preserve a manufacturing sector. Without nationalisation, planning and democratic worker control its fucked. Look at Honda, British steel. What's the answer?

If we continue on the same economic model of the last 40 years it will all disappear.

 

[Jeremiah18.17]

No, that's the only way we could preserve a manufacturing sector. Without nationalisation, planning and democratic worker control its fucked. Look at Honda, British steel. What's the answer?

If we continue on the same economic model of the last 40 years it will all disappear.

If Britain continues to operate in the context of a globalised market economy, much of the manufactiring base is finished. If Britain attempts some kind of autarchic self-supporting market economy with widespread state ownership, it is likely much of the manufacturing base is finished.
It is almost like in a modern interlinked world facing interlinked economic, social and environmental crises, the solutions are global and “socialism in one country” and nationalism are as much of a dead end as they have ever been.......

 

[Artaxerxes]

If Britain continues to operate in the context of a globalised market economy, much of the manufactiring base is finished. If Britain attempts some kind of autarchic self-supporting market economy with widespread state ownership, it is likely much of the manufacturing base is finished.
It is almost like in a modern interlinked world facing interlinked economic, social and environmental crises, the solutions are global and “socialism in one country” and nationalism are as much of a dead end as they have ever been.......

This.

The global trade network and interlinking of customs and trade standards means that no country is ever going to be able to stand by itself and be truly 'sovereign'.

Unless it's North Korea, and even they are propped up by China as a fuck you to the Americans.

Besides the idea that we leave the EU and suddenly socialism can happen isn't paying much attention to the state and organisation of socialism in this country.

 

[gosub]

This.

The global trade network and interlinking of customs and trade standards means that no country is ever going to be able to stand by itself and be truly 'sovereign'.

Unless it's North Korea, and even they are propped up by China as a fuck you to the Americans.

Besides the idea that we leave the EU and suddenly socialism can happen isn't paying much attention to the state and organisation of socialism in this country.

But we've known that for decades. Which is why it's odd v little of the "discussion" has mentioned the service sector which we transitioned to mitigate against that... Changing our relationship with EU will have a big impact on that.

 

[redsquirrel]

Besides the idea that we leave the EU and suddenly socialism can happen isn't paying much attention to the state and organisation of socialism in this country.

That would be a very silly idea but is anyone, either on U75 or wider afield, suggesting it

 

[SpackleFrog]

If Britain continues to operate in the context of a globalised market economy, much of the manufactiring base is finished. If Britain attempts some kind of autarchic self-supporting market economy with widespread state ownership, it is likely much of the manufacturing base is finished.
It is almost like in a modern interlinked world facing interlinked economic, social and environmental crises, the solutions are global and “socialism in one country” and nationalism are as much of a dead end as they have ever been.......

Don't think I was advocating Socialism in One Country, ta.

 

[Raheem]

No, that's the only way we could preserve a manufacturing sector. Without nationalisation, planning and democratic worker control its fucked.

At some point in the future, perhaps. But taking the wrong decisions now just means there will be nothing left to fuck or to save.

 

[Supine]

I don't see how democratic worker control is going to make any industries more viable.

Our language, stabity (Lol), high tech industries and educated workforce are the positive things that keep business afloat in the UK.

 

[redsquirrel]

Viable, keep business afloat - lovely. We're all in it together!

Viable for who?

 

[Poi E]

Our language, stabity (Lol), high tech industries and educated workforce are the positive things that keep business afloat in the UK.

The profits made by capital keeps "businesses afloat" (whatever that means-successful extraction of surplus value I suppose.)

 

[redsquirrel]

The above rather neatly illustrates what the LP moving from a class/social to a progressive coalition would mean.

EDIT: Not Poi E's post the ones preceeding it.

 

[kabbes]

The above rather neatly illustrates what the LP moving from a class/social to a progressive coalition would mean.

Why do you hate things that float, redsquirrel ?

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

If Britain continues to operate in the context of a globalised market economy, much of the manufactiring base is finished. If Britain attempts some kind of autarchic self-supporting market economy with widespread state ownership, it is likely much of the manufacturing base is finished.
It is almost like in a modern interlinked world facing interlinked economic, social and environmental crises, the solutions are global and “socialism in one country” and nationalism are as much of a dead end as they have ever been.......

Someone's not read the narrative...

Airbus now wants to remain in UK regardless of Brexit outcome

European planemaker Airbus wants to stay in the UK whatever the outcome of Brexit, as the country is “a very important pillar” for the company, new CEO Guillaume Faury said on Tuesday (21 May), amending negative comments made by his predecessor.

 

[Poi E]

Whaddya know. Capital still can make a buck post-Brexit. Brexit may seem seismic to some but it's a regulatory issue for capital.

 

[kabbes]

Whaddya know. Capital still can make a buck post-Brexit. Brexit may seem seismic to some but it's a regulatory issue for capital.

Indeed, for the financial services, Brexit is already in the rearview mirror. Their solutions have been implemented already because we were due to leave at the end of March and nobody was going to be unprepared for that deadline. “It’s just a regulatory issue” is about as good a description of that process as I’ve seen.

 

[Poi E]

Capital you move in seconds, plant in days, shedding people in weeks. It's all pretty fast.

 

[Jeremiah18.17]

Someone's not read the narrative...

Airbus now wants to remain in UK regardless of Brexit outcome

The key words there are “regardless of the Brexit outcome”. Airbus’s decision merely indicates that in the short to medium term at least, the outcome of Brexit or no Brexit will be turned to the advantage of Capital. Who knew?

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Superb article by Wolfgang Streeck on the crisis of the European left highlighting 4 reasons why its on the retreat almost everywhere:

Four Reasons the European Left Lost

 

[isvicthere?]

No option for who l voted for: PSOE.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Superb article by Wolfgang Streeck on the crisis of the European left highlighting 4 reasons why its on the retreat almost everywhere:

Four Reasons the European Left Lost

Not usually a huge fan of Streeck but that's great, thanks for posting.

 

[redsquirrel]

Superb article by Wolfgang Streeck on the crisis of the European left highlighting 4 reasons why its on the retreat almost everywhere:

Four Reasons the European Left Lost

Cheers for that.
This bit is worth stressing

Defending democracy is always a good thing. But in joining the fight, the Left could at least have pointed out that democracy is not just mobilizing progressive voters for a powerless parliament. It also means provisions for local government autonomy, for collective bargaining and trade union representation, for workers’ voice on the shop floor and on the boards of large firms, for a public property regime conducive to high public investment, and a truly pluralist media. It appears unlikely that here the Greens could be reliable allies.

 

[treelover]

In particular, any critical discussion of the EU’s central social policy — the free movement of labor between the now economically extremely different member countries — is strictly avoided, combined with hints of sympathy for open borders generally, including those with the outside world. This does nothing but validate the image spread by the Greens and the center-left middle-class parties of Europe being mainly about young people traveling without border controls and not needing to change money.

Saying the unsayable, very very difficult to raise these views at any left gathering such as The World Transformed, certainly not the liberal left type ones.

 

[treelover]

It’s time Corbyn reflected his own party, and opposed Brexit | Phil Wilson

here is an article from a LP MP, Phil Wilson, which takes no lesson onboard,

 

[Smokeandsteam]

It’s time Corbyn reflected his own party, and opposed Brexit | Phil Wilson

here is an article from a LP MP, Phil Wilson, which takes no lesson onboard,

Wilson, Mason and others seem to see the path to power being to join a three way fight for the 48% remain vote.

But the problem Wilson identifies for Labour being pro-leave - out flanked by the BP - is precisely the same problem it would have with the LD’s being pro remain. I’ve said for over a year that the chickens would come home to roost for labour due to its abject failure to set out a strategic plan on Brexit and its lack of ambition to lead on this issue. The problem is even more severe now because whatever position it adopts will prompt deep division

 

[Proper Tidy]

Well this is it. They've fucked themselves, maintaining their position still seems least worst option.

Tbh whatever happens with leaving or remaining in EU, if end result of this is that Tories and Labour critically wounded for a while then that'll do me, see what happens in the space

 

[agricola]

Wilson, Mason and others seem to see the path to power being to join a three way fight for the 48% remain vote.

But the problem Wilson identifies for Labour being pro-leave - out flanked by the BP - is precisely the same problem it would have with the LD’s being pro remain. I’ve said for over a year that the chickens would come home to roost for labour due to its abject failure to set out a strategic plan on Brexit and its lack of ambition to lead on this issue. The problem is even more severe now because whatever position it adopts will prompt deep division

The most annoying thing about it is the failure to explain why the party has taken this stance, not the position itself (which is the only sensible one to take tbh).

Corbyn and the rest of them should have been banging on repeatedly about how much of a bad idea a second referendum ran by this Government would be, and how daft a concept the "Brexit Party" is - with its twelve members, charging people to attend rallies, £25 to be a "registered supporter" and no actual policies. He is right to point to decades of neglect causing this vote, and right to actually try to heal this entirely false leave/remain division that is increasingly being pushed out. He has to explain this much better than he has been.

The thing that maddens me the most is this is exactly the sort of failure - of not explaining a political position that is sensible and would have been easy to explain - that probably cost them a win in 2017, over defence and Trident replacement (in which a random audience member articulated his policy better in a sentence than he did during his 30 minutes of audience questions).

 

[Poi E]

What is Labour's reason for supporting nukes?

 

[kebabking]

What is Labour's reason for supporting nukes?

Officially?

Bargaining chip in multilateral nuclear disarmament talks.

Unofficially it's because the electorate don't trust CND members who go on cycling tours of Soviet dominated East Germany.

 

[belboid]

Officially?

Bargaining chip in multilateral nuclear disarmament talks.

Unofficially it's because of Unite members' jobs.

cfy