England v Denmark - Wednesday 07/07 - 20:00

[The39thStep]

Yep, and noticeable that the fans of many other European teams are becoming more mixed as well. Europe is changing and football is changing with it. All good.

I can't remember which World Cup it was when I noticed it (around 2006, or perhaps it was 2002), but there was a noticeable shift 10-15 years ago when the flag stuff around major comps lost its racial connotations. I still don't like flags much, but I don't dread the thought of them any more.

Yes agree. We also don’t have the ‘you can’t fly the flag of St George in case you offend the pakis ‘ myth as well.

 

[The39thStep]

Mans Italian so....

The Mbappe ‘penalty’ against Portugal was the worst I’ve seen given in the Euros .

 

[Lord Camomile]

The coming home stuff is clearly a joke. We all know the original meaning was about hosting a tournament and now its morphed into meaning actually winning something which very few England fans believe will ever happen. Its self-satirising in many ways.

I'm not sure this bit is true.

To be honest, I think it's hard to know exactly how many people take/reference it one way or the other. Certainly there's numbers on both sides.

It does feel, on urban at least, that for most of us it is knowing and tongue in cheek, an almost sarcastic/ironic, self-deprecating faux-bravado based on years of successive failure, often in quite dramatic/overly heartbreaking fashion. It's one thing to just go out of a tournament because a better team beat you, or because you were shite (as has happened to England many times), but it feels like we've got quite the share of 'moments' that allow people to mythologise them.

In terms of our general fanbase, I honestly don't know how it compares with others, as I imagine I am (like most fans, I would expect) more sensitive to and focused on what my country does. We do seem to have our fair share of pricks and cunts, though, and I don't think I've caught anyone else booing anthems (I know I go on about it, but it's just both so glaring and so petty).

In terms of last night, though: it was the softest of soft penalties, I'm still not even convinced there was contact, and I think if you can't acknowledge that when it goes in you favour then a) you can't carp about it when it goes against you and b) you just look like a fecking idiot to everyone else on both occasions, because you're not fooling anyone.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

To be honest, I think it's hard to know exactly how many people take/reference it one way or the other. Certainly there's numbers on both sides.

In terms of our general fanbase, I honestly don't know how it compares with others, as I imagine I am (like most fans, I would expect) more sensitive to and focused on what my country does. We do seem to have our fair share of pricks and cunts, though, and I don't think I've caught anyone else booing anthems (I know I go on about it, but it's just both so glaring and so petty).

It does feel, on urban at least, that for most of us it is knowing and tongue in cheek, an almost sarcastic/ironic, self-deprecating faux-bravado based on years of successive failure, often in quite dramatic/overly heartbreaking fashion. It's one thing to just go out of a tournament because a better team beat you, or because you were shite (as has happened to England many times), but it feels like we've got quite the share of 'moments' that allow people to mythologise them.

In terms of last night, though: it was the softest of soft penalties, I'm still not even convinced there was contact, and I think if you can't acknowledge that when it goes in you favour then a) you can't carp about it when it goes against you and b) you just look like a fecking idiot to everyone else on both occasions, because you're not fooling anyone.

Yep. The Danes certainly have their moment to mythologise from last night.

It wasn't a pen. Let's face it. I don't think it was a dive either fwiw.

 

[Lord Camomile]

Yep. The Danes certainly have their moment to mythologise from last night.

I was thinking that last night, too Will England become their Germany/Argentina? Although probably more on pure footballing terms than all the cultural bullshite that exists for some people in our case.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

Tbh I don't think it was a penalty but it's absolutely routine isn't it. Any player is going down there at club or international level. The Danish would have given the opportunity and Italy will if they do. So I don't really care to be honest. England (and Scotland and Wales in this instance tbf) should stop making out it's not something that happens here though, and those whining about last night should get off their high horses.

 

[ddraig]

What you did say was a bit if a skewed reading of the song, though. The 30 years (now 55) of hurt references England's succession of failures since 1966. England is a big country and should be a major footballing power. But truth is that it hasn't been. In the time since 1966, Germany, Brazil, Argentina, Italy and France have all won the World Cup more than once. France!! The French don't even care about football.

It's pretty self-deprecating to sing about the period you've been nowhere near as good as you should have been. It's not a sense of false entitlement to say that, imo, because I think it's reasonable to think that England should have been better than that. Nuts about football, big population, successful club teams. Spain's underachievement pre-2008 was comparable, and the Spanish were entitled to think that they had underachieved as well.

It's not the song and do get that, it's the wider usage of the phrase non ironically and again the entitlement, oh and the bolded bit, coulda shoulda, woulda
Why "should be?" If you're not you're not, deal with it as other countries do
Again, just be happy with the win and getting to a final, hopefully there'll be no need to bang on about 19fucking66

 

[JTG]

Yep, and noticeable that the fans of many other European teams are becoming more mixed as well. Europe is changing and football is changing with it. All good.

I can't remember which World Cup it was when I noticed it (around 2006, or perhaps it was 2002), but there was a noticeable shift 10-15 years ago when the flag stuff around major comps lost its racial connotations. I still don't like flags much, but I don't dread the thought of them any more.

2006 definitely. 200,000 England fans in Germany after the German's dispensed with all the "don't travel without a ticket" nonsense and just invited everybody to come and have a laugh with them even if they didn't go to the games. And so it came to pass.

Really CBA with these discussions now. Liberal English exceptionalism likes to think only we have nobheads. It's not true. Never was.

 

[JTG]

It absolutely was a penalty btw

 

[Lord Camomile]

It's not the song and do get that, it's the wider usage of the phrase non ironically and again the entitlement, oh and the bolded bit, coulda shoulda, woulda
Why "should be?" If you're not you're not, deal with it as other countries do
Again, just be happy with the win and getting to a final, hopefully there'll be no need to bang on about 19fucking66

I think that's fair to an extent, but by the same token, fans from other nations, including on here, often deride us for not being more successful given it's our national sport, the size of our population and the financial resources we have available.

Either we're failing to meet expectations or we shouldn't have those expectations in the first place - it's a bit much to criticise us from both directions!

 

[strung out]

All this talk about how awful England's fans are rings a bit hollow when you've got actual fascists openly congregating in the crowd at Hungary matches, black England players getting racially abused whenever they play in Eastern Europe, Italian fascists using ultras groups to recruit new members, while openly influencing the way their clubs are run. Closer to home, you've got the sectarian nonsense rife in Scottish football, or the hooliganism among Cardiff and Swansea fans going back decades, and yet it's always the England fans who get singled out as being a national disgrace.

I'm sorry, I just couldn't give a fuck about the bad behaviour of a (yes, fairly loud and visible) minority of England fans anymore, or at least no more so than what the fans of other countries get up to.

 

[JimW]

It absolutely was a penalty btw

Yes, this. Sandwiched by two and that leg isn't just a brush.

 

[ddraig]

All this talk about how awful England's fans are rings a bit hollow when you've got actual fascists openly congregating in the crowd at Hungary matches, black England players getting racially abused whenever they play in Eastern Europe, Italian fascists using ultras groups to recruit new members, while openly influencing the way their clubs are run. Closer to home, you've got the sectarian nonsense rife in Scottish football, or the hooliganism among Cardiff and Swansea fans going back decades, and yet it's always the England fans who get singled out as being a national disgrace.

I'm sorry, I just couldn't give a fuck about the bad behaviour of a (yes fairly loud and visible) minority of England fans anymore, or at least no more so than what the fans of other countries get up to.

bully for you, is ok with you that it concerns (many) others?

 

[strung out]

bully for you, it's ok that it concerns (many) others tho isn't it?

No, not when you've got literal fascists openly parading themselves around football across the continent.

 

[ddraig]

No, not when you've got literal fascists openly parading themselves around football across the continent.

So can't be bothered about both at the same time?

 

[JimW]

If your team took someone down like that and no pen given you'd know you got away with one.

 

[Lord Camomile]

All this talk about how awful England's fans are rings a bit hollow when you've got actual fascists openly congregating in the crowd at Hungary matches, black England players getting racially abused whenever they play in Eastern Europe, Italian fascists using ultras groups to recruit new members, while openly influencing the way their clubs are run. Closer to home, you've got the sectarian nonsense rife in Scottish football, or the hooliganism among Cardiff and Swansea fans going back decades, and yet it's always the England fans who get singled out as being a national disgrace.

I'm sorry, I just couldn't give a fuck about the bad behaviour of a (yes, fairly loud and visible) minority of England fans anymore, or at least no more so than what the fans of other countries get up to.

While taking your point slightly, quite frankly in one sense I couldn't give a fuck what's going on with other fans; it doesn't diminish or excuse any shite and bollocks our fans get up to.

I think most of us here are on record as calling out all that shite from other fans too, and that just doubles down on why we can't ignore the stuff our own fans get up to.

 

[Lord Camomile]

If your team took someone down like that and no pen given you'd know you got away with one.

As I say, I'm still not entirely convinced I've seen an angle that shows contact before Sterling goes down, so right now I'm feeling like we got away with one.

 

[ddraig]

This thread should be about your victory last night
So final post on this unless quoted/baited/tagged, thanks

I went to a big uni and was the first time i'd seen proper england supporters, mostly fine but they did kick right off when they lost, throwing things about, shouting, crying and directing their anger at the other and inanimate objects, it was a shock.
Worked at the uni and we had to get ready if an england defeat was on the cards to minimise damage, protect ourselves and colleagues

Was in Portugal for the euros and the Portuguese fans were a breath of fresh air, when they lost they went quiet, shrugged and went home, no shouting, no kicking off and no violence against other fans
When england lost their game they kicked off, chucked stuff about and even started throwing rocks at passing cars! And they didn't even lose to Portugal (edit - apparently you did, thanks to strung out for correction), there was lots and lots of anger and looking for someone to blame

And that's just a few experiences

 

[JTG]

These discussions give sad bastards something to hang their obsessive hatred on so I guess they're necessary.

Maybe consider getting a life before it's too late though?

 

[JTG]

No, not when you've got literal fascists openly parading themselves around football across the continent.

Mentioned by literally nobody on here during Hungary's games as well. Hurrah for the black shirts indeed

 

[ddraig]

Mentioned by literally nobody on here during Hungary's games as well. Hurrah for the black shirts indeed

Why aren't you 2 enjoying the sun and your win?

 

[JTG]

Literally can't bear the thought of English people being happy. Sad bastard

 

[The Octagon]

 

[ddraig]

Literally can't bear the thought of English people being happy. Sad bastard

Who? not me, have you actually read my posts or just projecting them in your head??
Calm down and enjoy your win eh

 

[JTG]

I remember going to Cardiff and being told by a copper not to show my colours, flag or even say anything while waiting to go home because I'd probably get my head kicked in

I also remember going to Wales games and being told on the bogs to "fuck off you English cunt"

So, you know, shut up like

 

[ddraig]

I remember going to Cardiff and being told by a copper not to show my colours, flag or even say anything while waiting to go home because I'd probably get my head kicked in

I also remember going to Wales games and being told on the bogs to "fuck off you English cunt"

So, you know, shut up like

Angry and bitter, despite winning, weird, hope you're ok

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

I also remember going to Wales games and being told on the bogs to "fuck off you English cunt"

You were probably acting like you were entitled to go for piss.

 

[Wilf]

If you want to watch history being made, this afternoon Mark Cavendish will try to equal Eddie Merckx' record of 34 Tour de France stage wins. In football terms, it's like winning the World Cup, but when all your teammates have been sent off, and you had to get to the stadium in Brazil by swimming.

To be fair, I used to have a bike. Didn't go on about it though.

 

[strung out]

So can't be bothered about both at the same time?

I am very bothered by both of them, but most people don't seem to be equally bothered, which is what baffles me.