Euros Final - Italy v England - Sunday 11/07 - 20:00

[killer b]

What happened?

eta. oh.

some locked-out fans let themselves in.

 

[rekil]

Guilty of loving england too much and being unable to hold their drink.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I think those decisions, sadly, are made depending on how much money is expected to be harvested and sod law and order.

How else to explain the decision to play the next World Cup in Qatar. Look forward to the players highlighting the 6,500 migrant workers who died building the stadiums they’ll be performing in, the treatment of women and the treatment of the LGBT community:

Revealed: 6,500 migrant workers have died in Qatar since World Cup awarded

Guardian analysis indicates shocking figure over the past decade likely to be an underestimate

www.theguardian.com

 

[Lord Camomile]

Agree with pretty much all of that regarding the penalty strategy, but they could have gone Kane, Maguire, Sterling, Grealish and Phillips and still lost. It's a lottery and I can't get too worked up about it.

Where I do take issue is with your comment - and one currently being forced down our throats by people who know fuck all about football in the main - that 'Southgate and the team did us proud". I'd argue that the conditions: a very favourable draw, home fixtures for all but one game against a very poor Ukraine, good (and even fortunate) referring decisions, no injuries etc are a combination of factors never to be repeated.

Southgate's conservatism, preferring to set sides up to avoid defeat rather than to win games and his insistence on a 7/3 (at times last night an 8/2) balance between player who are defensive rather than offensive was a mind set that was always going to count at some point. That double pivot of Phillips and Rice, the slowness to bring subs on, the inability to respond to coaching strategies from the other side. The team is exciting and full of potential, but Southgate still has major question marks at the top level. The defeat last night was very similar to the defeat against Croatia 3 three years ago: with a lead being squandered by being sat on rather than built on suggesting he learnt little from it.

Catching up a bit so apologies if this point has already been made; I think I may well agree with a good portion of that in terms of tactics - we're clearly still far from the finished article and definitely benefitted from a number of 'not on the pitch' factors - but personally I feel like a good portion of the "they done us proud" rhetoric is a reaction to the sadly inevitable shite from certain sections of England fans, in addition to the historic tendency to abuse a handful of scapegoats.

So, perhaps it is a bit over the top when looked at performance alone, but it's not just about the on the pitch performance (just like England's success, I guess!).

Personally, I'm all for looking at things realistically and pragmatically rather than through the lens of emotion and narrative and ideology, but in the immediate aftermath of last night I just really want to counter all the bullshit abuse and negativity being directed at the team, that isn't "reasonable or constructive criticism" but, as I say, simply abuse.

(Just in case it's not clear as I'm running off the top of my head, definitely not including you in any of the abuse stuff; as I say, I think your points certainly have some merit)

 

[belboid]

I’m not at all sure Southgate was being conservative in holding off on the subs. By leaving them so late England had extra energy for extra time. It worked perfectly v Denmark who were completely knackered and a man short for the last ten minutes. Second half of et yesterday England looked more energetic and like scoring, but it didn’t come off. Should Kane have stayed on? I said Southgate was an idiot for not subbing him in the Germany game, and what did he do five minutes later? Fine margins, bad luck and an excellent opponent. Okay, and stupid bloody run ups, god I hate them.

 

[Lord Camomile]

Yeah, it can appear that way. But what your post overlooks is that we led in both games and appeared in control. But in both games the same two things happened: rather than building on the lead England, presumably under orders, sat on it thereby squandering momentum to the opposition and secondly as the opposition adapted we didn’t.

I’d say an objective crowd is a better description

Aye, my mum and I were basically talking about the same thing over lunch. Not entirely related, but:

• Euro '96 SF against Germany - went ahead after 3 minutes
• World Cup '98 against Argentina was weird but we were 2-1 up within 16 minutes
• Euro 2004 against Portugal - again went ahead after 3 minutes
• Euro 2016 against Iceland - went ahead after 4 minutes

There's only so much meaning I'll ascribe to results of what are essentially different teams over the span of decades, but it's still not a great record...

Precisely, let’s hope that he learns from both games as they are both telling him the same thing. It’s galling to think Sancho, Bellingham, Grealish, Saka, Foden (if not for the final) all feel seriously underused

Whilst certainly frustrated about it, my hope is that all of them bar Grealish are still very young, and hopefully have lots of game time and tournaments to come.

How else to explain the decision to play the next World Cup in Qatar. Look forward to the players highlighting the 6,500 migrant workers who died building the stadiums they’ll be performing in, the treatment of women and the treatment of the LGBT community:

Revealed: 6,500 migrant workers have died in Qatar since World Cup awarded

Guardian analysis indicates shocking figure over the past decade likely to be an underestimate

www.theguardian.com

Aye, have said before, but even while we were having our success in 2018 I was thinking "bollocks, this team might well peak/bloom in fucking Qatar". It shouldn't even be a question, I should just boycott the whole damn thing, but if we're playing well, and/or have a good shot at a decent run... I hate to say it but I probably will watch.

I am genuinely interested to see how this relatively socially conscious group of men deal with the tournament being in Qatar, though.

 

[Pickman's model]

Aye, my mum and I were basically talking about the same thing over lunch. Not entirely related, but:

• Euro '96 SF against Germany - went ahead after 3 minutes
• World Cup '98 against Argentina was weird but we were 2-1 up within 16 minutes
• Euro 2004 against Portugal - again went ahead after 3 minutes
• Euro 2016 against Iceland - went ahead after 4 minutes

There's only so much meaning I'll ascribe to results of what are essentially different teams over the span of decades, but it's still not a great record...


Whilst certainly frustrated about it, my hope is that all of them bar Grealish are still very young, and hopefully have lots of game time and tournaments to come.


Aye, have said before, but even while we were having our success in 2018 I was thinking "bollocks, this team might well peak/bloom in fucking Qatar". It shouldn't even be a question, I should just boycott the whole damn thing, but if we're playing well, and/or have a good shot at a decent run... I hate to say it but I probably will watch.

I am genuinely interested to see how this relatively socially conscious group of men deal with the tournament being in Qatar, though.

frankly there should be people buy 6,500 tickets for the games at that stadium of death and don't turn up, to have a fucking block of empty seats which represent the human cost of the tournament's construction

 

[belboid]

frankly there should be people buy 6,500 tickets for the games at that stadium of death and don't turn up, to have a fucking block of empty seats which represent the human cost of the tournament's construction

That’s a fucking excellent idea.

 

[Athos]

I am genuinely interested to see how this relatively socially conscious group of men deal with the tournament being in Qatar, though.

Me too. But I suspect we'll be disappointed. Because there's a world of difference between a gesture that costs you nothing and a genuine sacrifice.

 

[Wilf]

Aye, have said before, but even while we were having our success in 2018 I was thinking "bollocks, this team might well peak/bloom in fucking Qatar". It shouldn't even be a question, I should just boycott the whole damn thing, but if we're playing well, and/or have a good shot at a decent run... I hate to say it but I probably will watch.

I am genuinely interested to see how this relatively socially conscious group of men deal with the tournament being in Qatar, though.

I hope I'll manage to stick to my guns and not watch any of it, probably will. It's why football's so fucking infuriating. At the very moment you feel emotionally invested in something, there's a reminder that we are heading for something that goes beyond the 'usual' levels of venality and corruption in world football. Mass death and forced labour. It's also a reminder that the slightly mushy rainbow, inclusive, multicultural football has it's limits. None of the sponsors, broadcasters or football organisations who have been riding a branding wave on the back of that will be taking a single step to undermine Qatar 2022. The Beeb and ITV might manage a wee documentary on it whilst still coughing up for the broadcasting rights.

And while it might feel like bad form going on about Southgate's penalty selections last night, it feels like a perfect time to remember how corporate football turned murderous in terms of the fate of those migrant workers.

 

[Athos]

frankly there should be people buy 6,500 tickets for the games at that stadium of death and don't turn up, to have a fucking block of empty seats which represent the human cost of the tournament's construction

Filling the coffers of those responsible for the deaths. I'd rather if people bought tickets they turned up and made some coordinated protest e.g. turn their backs from the 65th minute onwards.

 

[Wilf]

Me too. But I suspect we'll be disappointed. Because there's a world of difference between a gesture that costs you nothing and a genuine sacrifice.

I agree. It would actually be a good moment for anti-slavery groups to try and get the likes of Rashford on board with campaigns that include Qatar. Same time that's pushing more pressure on a 23 year old who has been running his own attacks on the government. And that I should be thinking in those terms is also a reminder how fucked the left is more generally.

 

[gosub]

V poor management for om Gareth Southgate. Should have told them to do some more goals

 

[Dystopiary]

‘Unforgivable’: Gareth Southgate on racist abuse of England players

Gary Neville criticised Johnson’s leadership.

He told Sky News: “I’m just reading your breaking news and it says the ‘PM condemns racist abuse of England players’. Gareth Southgate and the players a few weeks ago, about five days on the trot, told us they were taking the knee to promote equality and it was against racism.

“The prime minister said it was OK for the population of this country to boo those players who were trying to promote equality and defend against racism. It starts at the very top. I wasn’t surprised in the slightest that I woke up to those headlines; I expected it the minute that the three players missed.”

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I agree. It would actually be a good moment for anti-slavery groups to try and get the likes of Rashford on board with campaigns that include Qatar. Same time that's pushing more pressure on a 23 year old who has been running his own attacks on the government. And that I should be thinking in those terms is also a reminder how fucked the left is more generally.

Thing is, stuff like taking the knee was accepted by the FA once it had been pushed for by the players. And it cost the FA nothing to support it. Meanwhile, Rashford attacking the government again also doesn't really reflect on the FA.

FIFA is incredibly protective of its reputation. Attacking FIFA would immediately cause conflict for and with the FA. It's hard to see it happening.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

I think the 'social conscience' of the team as far it is there is rooted in their own experiences, whether that's playing in very mixed teams from a young age or just their social background growing up. In general I think it's more powerful than that but I doubt it's something that will make the leap to making much of a statement about Qatar tbh.

 

[Wilf]

Thing is, stuff like taking the knee was accepted by the FA once it had been pushed for by the players. And it cost the FA nothing to support it. Meanwhile, Rashford attacking the government again also doesn't really reflect on the FA.

FIFA is incredibly protective of its reputation. Attacking FIFA would immediately cause conflict for and with the FA. It's hard to see it happening.

Yep and the time for the FA to withdraw from Qatar 2022 is of course long past.

 

[Pickman's model]

Filling the coffers of those responsible for the deaths. I'd rather if people bought tickets they turned up and made some coordinated protest e.g. turn their backs from the 65th minute onwards.

have you thought this through? not turning up would entail not filling airline coffers or the vaults of qatar through tourism, so environmentally better than actually going to the competition. plus there's a great visual spectacle throughout the match / competition.

 

[Ted Striker]

Penno takers are usually more defined by who won't take one. In one of our fails, (Pearce, 90?), I was always pointed my ire at Paul Ince who suddenly wasn't the tough guy he always fancied himself as.

One of the ballsiest thing for a player to do. A notable few (attacking captains, forwards, a few oddballs, Ronaldo) seem to enjoy it. But a decision to take one is a heroic move. (And fairly irrational considering the low upside vs whopping reputational and psychological downside).

Shit way to end the tournaments last match tho. Just play next goal wins aet ffs for the final.

 

[Ted Striker]

Rashford's was the key miss, anyhow. And every manager would have Rashford in their five pen takers.

So it goes.

The last one got me more. It was writing a pickford fairytale, then... no

 

[Athos]

not turning up with entail not filling airline coffers or the vaults of qatar through tourism, so environmentally better than actually going to the competition. plus there's a great visual spectacle throughout the match / competition.

Fair points. Though I suspect the seats would be scattered and Qatar/FIFA would do their best to prevent coverage. I fear panning past the odd empty seat wouldn't have much impact as a spectacle of protest.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The last one got me more. It was writing a pickford fairytale, then... no

Emotionally, yeah, I agree. But Sancho and Saka missing was made more likely by Rashford's miss, I think. Suddenly England were behind.

 

[Maggot]

Yeah, it can appear that way. But what your post overlooks is that we led in both games and appeared in control. But in both games the same two things happened: rather than building on the lead England, presumably under orders, sat on it thereby squandering momentum to the opposition and secondly as the opposition adapted we didn’t.

I’d say an objective crowd is a better description

We didn't sit on the lead. We created plenty of chances, especially in the first half, and looked dangerous.

 

[killer b]

Me too. But I suspect we'll be disappointed. Because there's a world of difference between a gesture that costs you nothing and a genuine sacrifice.

An American watched the match with us last night and was mystified about what the taking of the knee meant, divorced of the context of Kaepernik's original stance. 'why aren't they doing it during the national anthem?' she asked.

 

[hitmouse]

have you thought this through? not turning up would entail not filling airline coffers or the vaults of qatar through tourism, so environmentally better than actually going to the competition. plus there's a great visual spectacle throughout the match / competition.

Tbf, there probably won't be too many England fans flying over to Qatar then, since by 2022 they'll be requiring a lengthy quarantine for anyone arriving from Plague Island.

 

[Pickman's model]

Tbf, there probably won't be too many England fans flying over to Qatar then, since by 2022 they'll be requiring a lengthy quarantine for anyone arriving from Plague Island.

as soon as the dry nature of the event becomes clear interest from many england fans will evaporate

 

[Maggot]

I just heard on the news that a mural of him in Manchester has been defaced

Rashford mural defaced after his penalty miss in England Euro 2020 final defeat

Marcus Rashford was one of the men to miss a penalty for England in their Euro 2020 final defeat to Italy and has subsequently seen a mural of himself in Manchester defaced

www.mirror.co.uk

I don't think I can support England anymore. There are just too many cunts who support them. Booing every single anthem. Booing the taking of the knee. And now this all too predictable reaction.

Someone has covered it up with hearts.

 

[Steel Icarus]

Emotionally, yeah, I agree. But Sancho and Saka missing was made more likely by Rashford's miss, I think. Suddenly England were behind.

Admittedly I was fairly drunk but I don't THINK we were behind, technically, until after Sancho missed; up to then we were ahead or playing catchup.

 

[Athos]

An American watched the match with us last night and was mystified about what the taking of the knee meant, divorced of the context of Kaepernik's original stance. 'why aren't they doing it during the national anthem?' she asked.

And what did you tell her?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Admittedly I was fairly drunk but I don't THINK we were behind, technically, until after Sancho missed; up to then we were ahead or playing catchup.

Playing catch-up is behind, though. So it was 3-2 when Sancho stepped up, and nobody scored from then on. It's like needing to hold serve in tennis - you're behind but not fatally so.