Do angry vegans turn you against going vegan?

[NoXion]

what do you mean by the bit i've bolded?
are you hypocrisy hunting?

Well I don't see what difference it makes to the other animals the reason why they're killed. They're not going to care if it's for meat or for something we consider "essential", any more than any human would care why they're being murdered.

 

[ddraig]

Well I don't see what difference it makes to the other animals the reason why they're killed. They're not going to care if it's for meat or for something we consider "essential", any more than any human would care why they're being murdered.

what "essential" things are they killed for and what about the living space assertion? can you elaborate or back up?

 

[ddraig]

are you arguing if you can't do something 100% watertight there's no point in trying or those trying are pathetic losers and they might as well add more cruelty and eat meat?

 

[Horus Snacks]

are you arguing if you can't do something 100% watertight there's no point in trying or those trying are pathetic losers and they might as well add more cruelty and eat meat?

Why is it cruel to eat meat?

 

[NoXion]

what "essential" things are they killed for and what about the living space assertion? can you elaborate or back up?

I hardly think it's controversial to state that when humans occupy or make us of land for whatever reason, they displace other animals, indeed entire ecosystems, in the process. They may try to move into these areas once they are established, but may well be considered disruptive or noxious to the human inhabitants and could be subject to pest control measures. Since there is limited surface area on this planet, this means that when humans (re-)make use of land, animals will die for want of living space. This happens whatever the diet of the human population concerned.

When humans do that kind of thing to each other, we tend to call it things like ethnic cleansing and genocide. Viewed in that light, eating meat and wearing leather are merely the gore-cherries on a planet-sized scabcake covered in blood icing. It's not all bad for non-humans I guess though; despite endless attempts at elimination by humans, rats have enjoyed an unprecedented success in breeding and surviving, hitching rides on human transportation to inhabit the entire world, or close enough.

But for the vast majority of non-human animals on this planet, the mere presence of humans is usually bad news. What is more fundamental than the right to life? How can animals be liberated under the shadow of human domination?

are you arguing if you can't do something 100% watertight there's no point in trying or those trying are pathetic losers and they might as well add more cruelty and eat meat?

The problem as I see it is that being vegan is not even close to "100% watertight", if one takes the view that killing animals is inherently wrong. Would you accept a war criminal's excuse that at least he and none of his underlings ended up eating the bodies of their victims?

 

[ddraig]

Why is it cruel to eat meat?

because something has to die for you to eat it, ad you don't need it so choose for something to be put to death for your plate
and that's without the horrendous way animals are bred and raised before being slaughtered

why is it not?

 

[ddraig]

I hardly think it's controversial to state that when humans occupy or make us of land for whatever reason, they displace other animals, indeed entire ecosystems, in the process. They may try to move into these areas once they are established, but may well be considered disruptive or noxious to the human inhabitants and could be subject to pest control measures. Since there is limited surface area on this planet, this means that when humans (re-)make use of land, animals will die for want of living space. This happens whatever the diet of the human population concerned.

When humans do that kind of thing to each other, we tend to call it things like ethnic cleansing and genocide. Viewed in that light, eating meat and wearing leather are merely the gore-cherries on a planet-sized scabcake covered in blood icing. It's not all bad for non-humans I guess though; despite endless attempts at elimination by humans, rats have enjoyed an unprecedented success in breeding and surviving, hitching rides on human transportation to inhabit the entire world, or close enough.

But for the vast majority of non-human animals on this planet, the mere presence of humans is usually bad news. What is more fundamental than the right to life? How can animals be liberated under the shadow of human domination?



The problem as I see it is that being vegan is not even close to "100% watertight", if one takes the view that killing animals is inherently wrong. Would you accept a war criminal's excuse that at least he and none of his underlings ended up eating the bodies of their victims?

oh my days, you actually typed that out!!
did you copy and paste it or honestly believe it??
killing less things is better, do you agree?

 

[Horus Snacks]

because something has to die for you to eat it, ad you don't need it so choose for something to be put to death for your plate
and that's without the horrendous way animals are bred and raised before being slaughtered

why is it not?

Then why is it ok to kill vegetables? Are they not alive?

I don't think animals killing animals is cruel. I think it can be done cruelly and I think cruelty can, and does, exist in the process, which we ought to minimise and stamp out. But that is ancillary to the point.

 

[NoXion]

oh my days, you actually typed that out!!
did you copy and paste it or honestly believe it??
killing less things is better, do you agree?

Depends on what "things" we are talking about. I think we should be killing more pests, and we should be killing fewer endangered species, but those are for entirely selfish reasons.

 

[ddraig]

Then why is it ok to kill vegetables? Are they not alive?

I don't think animals killing animals is cruel. I think it can be done cruelly and I think cruelty can, and does, exist in the process, which we ought to minimise and stamp out. But that is ancillary to the point.

how do you propose existing without eating vegetables and plants?
so we ought to minimise cruelty which exists in the process but you don't think killing animals is cruel? is that your actual argument??

 

[ddraig]

Depends on what "things" we are talking about. I think we should be killing more pests, and we should be killing fewer endangered species, but those are for entirely selfish reasons.

eating meat is selfish too if not necessary where you are and all the caveats about food deserts etc etc before everyone jumps in

 

[Horus Snacks]

how do you propose existing without eating vegetables and plants?
so we ought to minimise cruelty which exists in the process but you don't think killing animals is cruel? is that your actual argument??

I'm not proposing anything, I'm responding to what you said. I personally find the cruelty argument ridiculous because it seems arbitrary.

I don't think killing animals for food is cruel, i didn't say killing animals per se is cruel. It depends on the reason. I think that's the natural cycle of existence on planet earth. Killing animals for lipstick is cruel, killing animals for food is not. It also depends on th emethod of depsatch. If the process involves brutality then that would seem to me to be cruel.

 

[NoXion]

eating meat is selfish too if not necessary where you are and all the caveats about food deserts etc etc before everyone jumps in

Loads of things aren't necessary. You don't need to drink anything other than tap water, yet would you call selfish anyone who drinks more than that?

 

[klang]

carnist sounds a bit like someone who is prejudiced against carnival people

 

[Voley]

I approve.

 

[ddraig]

I'm not proposing anything, I'm responding to what you said. I personally find the cruelty argument ridiculous because it seems arbitrary.

I don't think killing animals for food is cruel, i didn't say killing animals per se is cruel. It depends on the reason. I think that's the natural cycle of existence on planet earth. Killing animals for lipstick is cruel, killing animals for food is not. It also depends on th emethod of depsatch. If the process involves brutality then that would seem to me to be cruel.

how does death not involve brutality?

Loads of things aren't necessary. You don't need to drink anything other than tap water, yet would you call selfish anyone who drinks more than that?

are you both in the same class at school?

 

[NoXion]

are you both in the same class at school?

Doing unnecessary things isn't selfish.

 

[ddraig]

Doing unnecessary things isn't selfish.

killing am animal purely for your pleasure is selfish

 

[Horus Snacks]

how does death not involve brutality?

I use the word to outline the situation where the animal was made to suffer. If we put a sick dog to sleep does it suffer? WOuld the vet be called brutal? I dont think so. Brutality would mean abuse, torture, unecessary pain inflicted. I don't think that is inherently the case with humanely and respectfully despatching animals for food.

I believe animal food is the optimal source of nutrition therefore i would argue that it's necessary in the sense we want to be at peak performance diet-wise.

 

[Horus Snacks]

killing am animal purely for your pleasure is selfish

no one has made the argument animals should be killed for pleasure.

 

[NoXion]

killing am animal purely for your pleasure is selfish

Well that's not the case with meat. It's generally eaten as food. Oh, it's purely for pleasure because you can choose to become vegan? Well you can choose to drink nothing but tap water.

 

[ddraig]

no one has made the argument animals should be killed for pleasure.

eating meat is for your pleasure isn't it?
you don't do debate very well do you!
why are many sports people choosing a vegan diet then if it didn't enable them to do a peak performance? do you think you'd beat them

 

[ddraig]

Well that's not the case with meat. It's generally eaten as food. Oh, it's purely for pleasure because you can choose to become vegan? Well you can choose to drink nothing but tap water.

so you don't enjoy eating meat? people don't eat it for their pleasure??

 

[NoXion]

so you don't enjoy eating meat? people don't eat it for their pleasure??

Well if it wasn't pleasurable I wouldn't eat it. That's how eating food works, at least for me. I suppose there exist those self-flagellating types who only force down their throat exactly what they think they need in nutritional terms, no matter how awful it tastes, but I suspect that such folks are in the minority.

 

[Horus Snacks]

eating meat is for your pleasure isn't it?
you don't do debate very well do you!
why are many sports people choosing a vegan diet then if it didn't enable them to do a peak performance? do you think you'd beat them

i eat food because it's healthy. That's what informs my diet. I also enjoy it because that's a biological necessity. There are foods I cannot stomach that are healthy so yes 'pleasure' in a practical sense is required. But it is not the focus or the goal. I think you're using the word incorrectly.

 

[gosub]

Well if it wasn't pleasurable I wouldn't eat it. That's how eating food works, at least for me. I suppose there exist those self-flagellating types who only force down their throat exactly what they think they need in nutritional terms, no matter how awful it tastes, but I suspect that such folks are in the minority.

Huel nutters

 

[NoXion]

Huel nutters

Huel?

 

[gosub]

Huel?

Complete Food

 

[NoXion]

Complete Food

Bloody hell!

 

[keybored]

Huel?

It's surely no coincidence that the product name sounds a lot like the noise I make when I throw up.