Veganism going out of fashion

[Chz]

This is a bit like my position. I enjoy vegetable dishes, they can be very good in their own right. I don't want, or need, to pretend they're meat. Speaking to my friends who are vegetarian or vegan they feel the same.

There are many vegans who miss their meat and it's fair to target them. But I think they really miss out on the "flexitarian" market then. I enjoy my veggies very much, but I've no interest in meat substitute because if I feel like that I will just eat meat. What I really want is interesting food that's just grains and vegetables, such that I don't notice or care that there's no meat in it. Most of us meat eaters are trying to eat less of it, but there's still enough meat in the diet to not need substitutes.

That said, I did try and like the Beyond burger.

 

[danny la rouge]

Yeah, it's a bit silly. I do a lot of vegan cooking and rarely use meat subsitutes, except for a bit of tofu or tempeh here and there. You make a decent vegan meal out of veg, legumes, nuts, wholegrains etc, and using a recipe designed for vegan eating, not by putting a meat substitute into some recipe designed for meat. But I guess there must be a market for this stuff, probably partly for people who don't know how to do tasty vegan cooking.

I wouldn’t count tofu or tempeh as “meat substitutes”. They’re both ancient foodstuffs, first documented 2000 years ago but probably much older, and although high in protein aren’t trying to look like or taste like meat.

I’m vegetarian (I was vegan for a couple of years but fell off the dairy wagon and now have cheese when I want to, though I do have oat milk), and mainly use beans, nuts and so on. Apart from tofu and oat milk, I rarely trouble the “vegan” chiller shelves, unless I fancy the occasional square sausage or Scotch pie (only very occasionally). So I’m not going come up much as a plant based shopper, although I’ve been a vegetarian since the 70s.

 

[8ball]

I wouldn’t count tofu or tempeh as “meat substitutes”.

Not least because in their native climes they’re quite commonly served with meat.

 

[gentlegreen]

After 40-something years, fake meat turns my stomach ... I also don't have any kind of savoury "focus" when I cook - not least for caloric reasons...
This Xmas was the first time in years that I ate food prepared by someone else - a separately-cooked nut roast at my Sister's ...
There was inevitably a minor cross-contamination incident but copious wine helped...

If my future plans work out, dining away from home will be vital - and a very big challenge - in a country that's decades behind the UK and where the online vegan community is massively invested in reproducing classic animal-based recipes... I suspect the only way it would work would be to have a personal relationship with the staff ... the one saving grace is that the nearest city is cosmopolitan and being a holiday venue they will doubtless need to be more flexible for the benefit of visitors...

This thread made me check a local place that's recently appeared, but the website does not inspire confidence ... I'll have to see what the window signs say ...
I can remember once eating at a "vegetarian" cafe in the 80s and made to feel I was being awkward for being vegan rather than lacto - ovo...

https://lailarestaurantbar.co.uk/images/menu/lailamenu.pdf

 

[InArduisFouette]

Stamping "plant based" over everything possible and adding a "plant based" price increase has really pissed me off over the past few years.

see also rebranding the now of questionable utility seed oil heavy spreads as 'vegan butter' becasue ' seed oil based marge' had got a bad press

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

The other aspect to this is that practically all restaurants/pubs/cafes have vegan options now so you don't have to go to the vegan restaurant if you want to eat out.

This would strike me as the main reason. It seems to be a rare restaurant these days that doesn’t have at least a couple of vegan options.

Any niche business - food or otherwise - is always a higher risk than something aiming at a broader base. Add in the current cost of living bullshit and there’s small retailers going to the wall everywhere, not just in hospitality.

 

[lazythursday]

Well I like fake meat products to be honest. I also like veggie burgers etc that aren't pretending to be meat. Sometimes there is a need for something you can just slap in a bun and eat - I'd love to be a wholefood vegan but I just don't have the time or motivation all of the time. I agree that the nutritional quality of them vary hugely though - and given I can't eat wheat 50-60% of them are off limits to me.

 

[Poot]

Anecdotally, I have noticed choices disappearing. I work near an M&S and if I treat myself to lunch, all my usual go-tos have gone. No cheese salad, no vegan pasta salad. There seems to be chicken in everything. Maybe it's a generational thing, I don't know. Apart from my own kids ( ) an awful lot of young people seem to be veggie or vegan or at least making an effort, but anything aimed at my generation seems to be a lot more meaty than it used to be.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yeah I've noticed chicken in everything recently. I guess 1. It's not red meat so will be chosen more, and 2. In its non-free range form, it's cheap.

 

[Dystopiary]

I dunno, is there some evidence that veganism going out of fashion? Lots of people don't eat out, or can't afford to as much as they used to. Doesn't mean they started eating (more) meat or dairy.

Also, as the article touched on and people said upthread, the growing availability of vegan food in more mainstream, cheaper places has made it harder for smaller outlets.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

I dunno, is there some evidence that veganism going out of fashion?

If niche places closing down is due to the wider availability of options in mainstream outlets, there’s an argument that far from going out of fashion it’s simply becoming more widespread and accepted.

 

[hash tag]

The vegan and vegetarian choices in more mainstream outlets tend to be bland and much if a muchness. The choices in a veggie or vegan place are much more appealing and interesting with a lot of work going in to them.

 

[Dystopiary]

The vegan and vegetarian choices in more mainstream outlets tend to be bland and much if a muchness. The choices in a veggie or vegan place are much more appealing and interesting with a lot of work going in to them.

Oh definitely.

 

[Chz]

The vegan and vegetarian choices in more mainstream outlets tend to be bland and much if a muchness. The choices in a veggie or vegan place are much more appealing and interesting with a lot of work going in to them.

That's a part of why they are expensive though. My stepson was a chef in a vegan restaurant for a while and it took him months to perfect a vegan banoffee pie that any other kitchen could have just cooked up from an internet recipe. He was extremely chuffed that it got written up as a high point in a newspaper review. I think he spent the better part of a year trying to get vegan macarons to be reliable enough for a commercial kitchen, but they were always too dependent on the weather and pure chance to make it to the menu.

 

[Brainaddict]

That's a part of why they are expensive though. My stepson was a chef in a vegan restaurant for a while and it took him months to perfect a vegan banoffee pie that any other kitchen could have just cooked up from an internet recipe. He was extremely chuffed that it got written up as a high point in a newspaper review. I think he spent the better part of a year trying to get vegan macarons to be reliable enough for a commercial kitchen, but they were always too dependent on the weather and pure chance to make it to the menu.

But again this is an approach of trying to make the same stuff as non-vegans. That's a hell of a lot of effort to go to rather than just accept that vegans will eat different treats.

 

[editor]

There are two separate issues I think. One, veganism has been thoroughly forced into the culture war by the right. But the second - most vegan food is ridiculously overpriced when it should be cheaper. People don't like being ripped off.

None of this changes the fact that a diet heavy in meat isn't sustainable on all sorts of levels, and I think ultimately diets will shift to be more plant based regardless of what's currently fashionable.

Plus a load of mainstream chain restaurants have now incorporated far more vegan meals into their menus.

 

[editor]

There are many vegans who miss their meat and it's fair to target them.

Why's that, then? Why should you 'target' anyone over their personal dietary preferences?

 

[gentlegreen]

I heard this mentioned earlier ....

People are more likely to pick a meat-free option if it's not labelled vegan, a study suggests.

Foods described as "healthy", "sustainable" or "plant-based" are all more appealing, according to the University of Southern California.


Its research saw more than 7,000 people asked to choose between a vegan food basket and one with meat and dairy.

The former was randomly labelled "vegan", "plant-based", "healthy", "sustainable" or "healthy and sustainable".

The experiment found people were more likely to select it when the focus was on its benefits (such as "sustainable") rather than its content, though "plant-based" was still more popular than "vegan".

Don't call me vegan: People more likely to go meatless if food labelled 'sustainable' instead

Researchers said changing packaging on meat and dairy-free products, which often proudly tout their vegan status, could result in more people selecting them.

news.sky.com

 

[editor]

If niche places closing down is due to the wider availability of options in mainstream outlets, there’s an argument that far from going out of fashion it’s simply becoming more widespread and accepted.

It would appear so:

In 2024, comparison website Finder questioned 2,000 Brits (with representative quotas for gender, age and region) and found that there are an estimated 2.5 million vegans in the UK (4.7 per cent of the adult population). They say the number of UK vegans has risen by an estimated 1.1 million between 2023 and 2024.

And of course, it's young people who will be shaping the future landscape of food:

Share of adults that plan to not eat meat in Great Britain in 2023, by generation

Topic: Veganism and vegetarianism in the UK

Find the most up-to-date statistics and facts on veganism in the United Kingdom

www.statista.com

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Why's that, then? Why should you 'target' anyone over their personal dietary preferences?

As in manufacturers targetting them as customers.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

Why's that, then? Why should you 'target' anyone over their personal dietary preferences?

Capitalism at its finest. You want their money.

 

[Chz]

Why's that, then? Why should you 'target' anyone over their personal dietary preferences?

I think you've mis-interpreted.
Because they want to sell things to them.

 

[Chz]

But again this is an approach of trying to make the same stuff as non-vegans. That's a hell of a lot of effort to go to rather than just accept that vegans will eat different treats.

The banoffee pie was because it's a comfort dessert for a lot of people. It was a huge seller.
The macarons were more of challenging himself than anything. When he saw that you can make a sort of meringue out of aquafaba, his mind immediately went to thinking what absurdities you could make out of that.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

But again this is an approach of trying to make the same stuff as non-vegans. That's a hell of a lot of effort to go to rather than just accept that vegans will eat different treats.

Many non-vegan desserts are incredibly yummy, though. The creaminess of a rich chocolate ganache, for example. If you can make a vegan equivalent that is comparably creamy, you've achieved quite a thing.

 

[kebabking]

As a filthy carnist I can attest to the quality of vegan food being far higher in vegan restaurants than in your local mid-range pub (same price) that has a couple of vegan dishes.

We would go out 'for a vegan' in the same way we'd go out for an Indian or whatever, but since those places either closed, or we moved away we've tried a couple of local places that we really rate for their 'omni' food, but their vegan stuff just isn't up to the standard of either the vegan only places, or their non-vegan dishes.

 

[cesare]

I have the feeling that many restaurants have a vegan option that they call vegetarian and add with a good description so the vegans can reassure themselves that it's vegan. I bet fairly few and far between vegan options together with vegetarian options.

Indian restaurants don't usually brand their dishes vegan or Vegetarian but so many are.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I have the feeling that many restaurants have a vegan option that they call vegetarian and add with a good description so the vegans can reassure themselves that it's vegan. I bet fairly few and far between vegan options together with vegetarian options.

Indian restaurants don't usually brand their dishes vegan or Vegetarian but so many are.

Indian food is a good veggie option because, as you say, many dishes are veggie anyway, although vegan is much harder, what with the likely use of ghee.

When I've planned restaurants for groups in the past, I've tried to go for a cuisine that is naturally veggie-friendly. Turkish/Greek is also a decent choice.

Some, like Thai, are kind of a no-no cos of basic ingredients like fish sauce.

This kind of 'compromise' planning is fine for veggies but tbh it's not really possible for vegans. Most of the vegans I know are well aware of this and relatively sanguine about it. Specialist vegan restaurant is clearly always going to be the best choice for them. Otherwise with group bookings, they're likely not to have a great choice, sadly.

 

[cesare]

Indian food is a good veggie option because, as you say, many dishes are veggie anyway, although vegan is much harder, what with the likely use of ghee.

When I've planned restaurants for groups in the past, I've tried to go for a cuisine that is naturally veggie-friendly. Turkish/Greek is also a decent choice.

Some, like Thai, are kind of a no-no cos of basic ingredients like fish sauce.

This kind of 'compromise' planning is fine for veggies but tbh it's not really possible for vegans. Most of the vegans I know are well aware of this and relatively sanguine about it. Specialist vegan restaurant is clearly always going to be the best choice for them. Otherwise with group bookings, they're likely not to have a great choice, sadly.

You can ask for "pure vegetarian" though? And not have ghee brushed on naan bread. Tbh I don't know for.myself but my other half sat next to.me, vegan for years, is commenting.

 

[newme]

It would appear so:



And of course, it's young people who will be shaping the future landscape of food:

Share of adults that plan to not eat meat in Great Britain in 2023, by generation

View attachment 412684

Topic: Veganism and vegetarianism in the UK

Find the most up-to-date statistics and facts on veganism in the United Kingdom

www.statista.com

Planning not to and are currently doing is a fair difference tho. The actual current statistics seem far more relevant when discussing a lower demand right now.

 

[newme]

You can ask for "pure vegetarian" though? And not have ghee brushed on naan bread. Tbh I don't know for.myself but my other half sat next to.me, vegan for years, is commenting.

Pure vegan I guess that was meant to be? Based on various restaurants and pub experience you can ask but they can't guarantee or it will be a reduced menu. Similar to allergies to a degree but different of course.

Ghee on a naan bread is an easier removal than that being the primary cooking oil for example which could then be in anything or everything. Especially when a lot of things have common sauces/etc or don't have a separate cooking area setup.