David Icke on the Russell Brand show
- Thread starter Jazzz
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It doesn't matter for the purposes of my analogy whether Americans are a 'race' or not.nosos said:
But I must say your example is a better one. Obviously it would not be anti-semitic to suggest that and elite group of Jews are playing a role in American neo-con circles, and hence American Imperialism, it would simply be a statement of fact. How that is anti-semitic I have no idea.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
smokedout said:
No it wasn't - it's been part of conspiracy theories for centuries.
Meltingpot said:
the templars were christians that apostated after finding something under the Temple of Solomon when they were excavating during the crusades, most likely some knowledge of black magic that came from either egypt or babylon.
they were outlawed and hunted down but regrouped and re established as the freemasons (frere- masons) french, for brotherhoood of builders(ie relating 2 their desire 2 re establish the Temple of Solomon).
@ Jazz
Of course an elite group of Jews are "playing a role in American neo-con circles". I'm confident you're literate enough to realise that's not the example I gave and can only presume you're being deliberately disingenous. Explaining American war-mongering by way of a Jewish conspiracy within the neo-Conservative movement would be clearly anti-Semitic because it attributes all malicious action to a racialised group in the absense of any empirical basis. It infers from the presence of some Jews in power that they are responsible for a certain set of undesirable events because (suppressed premise) Jews are evil conspirators and non-Jews are reasonable and decent non-conspirators. A racist claim fills in a huge blank in the empirical hypothesis.
Of course an elite group of Jews are "playing a role in American neo-con circles". I'm confident you're literate enough to realise that's not the example I gave and can only presume you're being deliberately disingenous. Explaining American war-mongering by way of a Jewish conspiracy within the neo-Conservative movement would be clearly anti-Semitic because it attributes all malicious action to a racialised group in the absense of any empirical basis. It infers from the presence of some Jews in power that they are responsible for a certain set of undesirable events because (suppressed premise) Jews are evil conspirators and non-Jews are reasonable and decent non-conspirators. A racist claim fills in a huge blank in the empirical hypothesis.
butchersapron said:
not really, not really in the way its presented by icke and modern conspiracists, youd be hard pressed to find a reference before holy blood, holy grail
there were similiar groups throughout history with similiar names, but the modern incarnation of the priory of sion is very contemporary
its irrelevent to this discussion anyway cos icke pins the protocals squarely at the feet of the illuminati, who some would say are the priorys greatest enemy
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
smokedout said:
Baigent et al drew on pre-existing conspiracy theories about the temple of sion, they didn't invent it, they may well have modernised it via Plantard, but they were still largely basing themselves on the old sources like Barruel. Modern day nutters appears draw on both the original and the modern idiocy.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Meltingpot said:
Maybe so but the people who take the protocols seriously aren't going to take much notice of one letters difference in their name.
Even if he alleges that they were "really" written by some evil cult of people who control the world, an elite group who sound suspiciously like Jews (but supposedly aren't) it's still a stupid thing to write and it doesn't make him any less wrong, or give his ideas any credibility.
I could write that the Protocols were real but they were written by a secret cult of didgeridoo players who used their didgeridoos to hypnotise the world's population into starting wars and killing and eating babies. OK, so it wouldn't be anti-semitic at all but just because something isn't racist it doesn't mean its anything other than complete and utter shite.
It saddens me to be honest that people are prepared to listen to this rubbish rather than actually look at history and society's problems. Hitler's rise happened because of long-standing problems in German society and the catastrophes caused by World War 1 and the Versailles Treaty, and were given extra credibility by trends within german philosophy, science and culture ... not because some secret cabal of Jews or Templars or some blokes you met in a pub met in a back room and decided to give Hitler a few million dollars.
Mrs Magpie
On a bit of break...
frogwoman, best posts on this thread. You go girlfriend! I've changed my tagline in your honour.
mikeinworthing
New Member
Jazzz said:
Fuck me - I go for a bite to eat and come back to a thread that has moved on several pages.
Did I miss anything other than the usual crap from jazzz?
butchersapron said:
fair enough, but they did bring it into the mainstream in a way it hadnt been before and certainly lit the touch paper for the new wave of conspiracy theory bandied about by dan brown and the like
but i still insist its the illuminati you wanna watch, not some bunch of hasbeen warrior monks
the illuminati know about science and everything
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
It also implies that all the evil events in the world are caused by one group, thus creating a very personalised view of history and a very idealistic view of everyone who isn't involved in the conspiracy, or opposes it, whereas this isn't the case at all
Its like saying that because islamist terrorists didn't support the Iraq war or the neo-conservatives who "did 9-11" it must mean they're the good guys?? That's the danger with this type of thinking, by saying that one lot of conspirators is irredeemably evil and without them the world would be better, it overlooks all the other stuff that's going on ...
Human nature isn't like that, you can't say that one group of people are evil and the rest good or simply stupid ... there are good and bad among the "ruling class" and among ordinary people and even within the same person ...
Its just a really lazy analysis and it fails to take into account all the different factors making history and politics what it is ... and it also ends up overlooking really important things
Its like saying that because islamist terrorists didn't support the Iraq war or the neo-conservatives who "did 9-11" it must mean they're the good guys?? That's the danger with this type of thinking, by saying that one lot of conspirators is irredeemably evil and without them the world would be better, it overlooks all the other stuff that's going on ...
Human nature isn't like that, you can't say that one group of people are evil and the rest good or simply stupid ... there are good and bad among the "ruling class" and among ordinary people and even within the same person ...
Its just a really lazy analysis and it fails to take into account all the different factors making history and politics what it is ... and it also ends up overlooking really important things
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Meltingpot said:
Are you kidding mate ??
The Templars had nothing to do with that horrible book at all.
It was written by the Russian secret service in order to discredit Bolshevism in the years leading up to the revolution.
It is a fraudulent document aimed at stigmatising a group of people and turning public anger against the regime and onto them. It was one of many desperate attempts to help the tsarist regime cling onto power.
The irony is that the Protocols is a blueprint for doing what many anti-semitic regimes have attempted to do. I've heard that Hitler kept a copy of it by his bed and tryed to impliment many of the techniques described in it in his own regime.
There is no world conspiracy, no protocols, no secret society controlling when nations go to war with each other and "owning all the world's banks". There certainly aren't any shapeshifting lizards who sacrifice children, like Icke says Charles and Camilla were meant to have done 30 years ago (and Diana died when she found out).
Why is it so hard to believe that all governments will contain corruption and people pursuing certain agendas and political motives because it's either what they believe or because they think they will make money out of it, or because they're just stupid? Why is it so much easier to believe that there is a small group of people out there controlling "everything" as an explanation for everything that goes on in the world? And that the stuff that gets cited as evidence of a conspiracy doesn't just occur in the government but actually happens everywhere, even on an individual level between ordinary people?
Im not saying conspiracies don't exist, it's just that the world and its rulers are too divided for there to be any kind of global conspiracy, and that even if it was, it wouldn't work - I mean the government just lost 25 million people's records, if they were involved in some massive thing like Icke suggests they could hardly be able to do that could they?
Take the Litvinenko poisoning, for example. If that was an example of the conspiracy at work, then how come the media in so many countries reported it - surely they would want to cover it up? Surely this could be a case of not one but two conspiracies - one by the Russian secret service and one (perhaps) aimed at stigmatising Russia in the Western media as some of the Russian government officials themselves allege?
goldenecitrone
post tenebras lux
Just watched the reconciliation with Wogan and Icke. Very sad. I've known a few people with schizophrenia and they are very similar to Mr.Icke. Very elaborate world views that bear little relation to anything I've noticed in my time on this planet. But an inability to see how their delusions look to others, though I'm sure they'd say the same about me.
<sigh>nosos said:
Yes, and it would be anti-semitic to describe 'a Jewish conspiracy' to start WWII but that is exactly not what Icke does. He simply asserts that a small elite group of Jews ('who have contempt for the great mass of Jewish people') were involved in a conspiracy. That, my friend, is not anti-semitic.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
David icke has a number of videos that allege among other things, that the royal family are shape shifting lizards and that Charles and Camilla killed their child in a ritual sacrifice
now whatever you think of the royal family, does this not sound oddly familiar to you? Its the same shite that government propaganda agencies, anti-semitic philosophers and historians and religious groups have said about Jews for centuries, except it's about the royal family and lizards this time.
There is plenty to criticise the royal family for but that allegation just makes the person saying it look stupid and deluded at best and downright sinister at worst (especially coupled with some of the things Icke and others like to say, such as that the Rothschilds and several other well known Jewish families are involved in this so-called conspiracy, and point out the fact that until recently the royal family had their children circumcised)
There is plenty to criticise these people for - so why allege something so baseless and with such dubious origins when there is quite enough written about these people that is totally provable - unless the person making the allegation has an agenda of their own, or has been persuaded to write this stuff by someone else who has one?
now whatever you think of the royal family, does this not sound oddly familiar to you? Its the same shite that government propaganda agencies, anti-semitic philosophers and historians and religious groups have said about Jews for centuries, except it's about the royal family and lizards this time.
There is plenty to criticise the royal family for but that allegation just makes the person saying it look stupid and deluded at best and downright sinister at worst (especially coupled with some of the things Icke and others like to say, such as that the Rothschilds and several other well known Jewish families are involved in this so-called conspiracy, and point out the fact that until recently the royal family had their children circumcised)
There is plenty to criticise these people for - so why allege something so baseless and with such dubious origins when there is quite enough written about these people that is totally provable - unless the person making the allegation has an agenda of their own, or has been persuaded to write this stuff by someone else who has one?
goldenecitrone
post tenebras lux
Jazzz said:
A Jewish/Boshevik conspiracy to weaken Germany? No, that was another bloke.
cosmic malcolm
cultivate joy
Yes I agree.
Yes I allso found this interesting
I thought he was the new mesiah the enlightend one.
And then I thought whot the fuck is he going on about.
At least he dare say whot he feels.
Mooncat said:
Yes I allso found this interesting
I thought he was the new mesiah the enlightend one.
And then I thought whot the fuck is he going on about.
At least he dare say whot he feels.
frogwoman said:
I don't follow you. What is it that the second lot have said about Jews which is similar to what Icke has said about the Royal family?
That they are lizards? Or that they kill their children?Regardless, I don't see what point you are trying to make here.
It seems to me that the accusation that a certain group are shape-shifting lizards of alien origin is really quite an extraordinary one.
8den
No I'm pretty sure that was 8ball...
Claims that Jews controlled the US banking system were first created by the Nazis to encite hatred of the USA when they entered the war aganist Germany.
Gosh Jazzz how would your family feel if they found out you were spreading Nazi propaganda.
Call me a liar if you like, but how about the fact that you ran away from the thread about Willie Rod's attendance at a conference with Neo Nazis.
If the family that ran away from the Nazis could see the vile lies you spread, jesus they'd be sick Jazzz. And the fact that you use them to defend your bullshit sickens me.
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