David Kelly death not suicide, says Norman Baker MP

[Sasaferrato]

I find it quite shocking that someone could pay thousands and thousands of pounds into what is, basically, an investment, and then have it taken off him as part of being fired. Even moreso that a spouse who has not actually done anything wrong at all would lose all her money too! That's abhorrent.

Indeed.

 

[HackneyE9]

Yeah, but once the crapness of the wrist wound became apparent the Government tried to exploit the drugs as a 'contributory factor' in cause of death.

The honcho from the Oxford Suicide research centre told Hutton that Kelly slit his wrist the 'correct' way, ie longitudinally, rather than laterally, IIRC. It'll be on the Hutton website.

Did the programme mention that bloke from Geneva who told Hutton that Kelly had told him that if there was an invasion of Iraq "I'll probably be found dead in the woods"?

 

[Loupylou]

What was the prog like? Any loose ends or interesting Qs, or is it all sown up, case closed?

The Govt killed him either directly (a hit) or indirectly (bullying him in public & hanging him out to dry so as to push him to suicide).

The thing I found most interesting & suspicious was that a public enquiry is usually used instead of an inquest so as to not repeat inquests for every person who have all died by the same means (e.g a train crash or some other disaster). A public enquiry has NEVER been used for a single death before. The inquiry that started was ordered to be wound up, but a verdict was given re his death. Tony Blair ordered the Hutton inquiry, which has less legal powers than an inquest, which is most odd considering the suspicions.

 

[8ball]

The whole thing stinks on so many levels.

When I think about it I doubt the Government would risk doing him in unless he was about so say something utterly catastophic. I bet they did a risk assessment on it, though.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Not even proper codeine?

Doubt that would do anyone in.

Co-proxamol is considerably more deadly than codeine. Co-proxamol consists of paracetamol 325mg, and dextropopoxyphene 32.5mg. Dextropopoxyphene is a synthetic opoid, which has a considerable effect on the respiratory centre in the brain, ten tablets can be a fatal dose. Ten tablets in conjunction with alcohol is a fatal dose. This is the principal reason that it has been withdrawn. It had the dubious distinction of being the most successful drug of suicide in the UK.

 

[Loupylou]

Didn't see the programme - but not his friend "Tom Mangold", by any chance? He was involved in the Colin Wallace whistleblower stuff in the 1970s too - he makes a guest appearance in Paul Foot's book about the Wilson smears. So the plot thickens...

As for the previous twenty posts or so, I'm sure the programme refreshed your memories, but Kelly took his wife's co-praxomol to deaden the pain of slitting his wrists, not to kill himself with.

No - it was a fellow scientist who also explained Kelly's professional status - very high as regards biological weapons investigation.

If he was the victim of a hit, a top barrister suggested that the tablets could have been placed next to the body to make it look like suidice. He also suggested (far too emphatically IMO) that the slit on his wrist could have been not only to make it look like suicide, but also to hide a puncture from a syringe needle if injected with drugs. He seemed to know a lot about it!

 

[8ball]

Co-proxamol is considerably more deadly than codeine. Co-proxamol consists of paracetamol 325mg, and dextropopoxyphene 32.5mg. Dextropopoxyphene is a synthetic opoid, which has a considerable effect on the respiratory centre in the brain, ten tablets can be a fatal dose. Ten tablets in conjunction with alcohol is a fatal dose. This is the principal reason that it has been withdrawn. It had the dubious distinction of being the most successful drug of suicide in the UK.

Ah - learning a lot tonight I am.

So it has a weaker therapeutic effect and is considerably moire dangerous.

Obviously a clever thing to put in headache pills.

 

[laptop]

He also suggested (far too emphatically IMO) that the slit on his wrist could have been not only to make it look like suicide, but also to hide a puncture from a syringe needle if injected with drugs. He seemed to know a lot about it!

Ah... when I was looking for info on dextropopoxyphene toxicity, all that was coming up was an Alex Jones article suggesting just that - which could explain the emphaticness. Emphaticity? Emphatitude?

 

[HackneyE9]

The thing I found most interesting & suspicious was that a public enquiry is usually used instead of an inquest so as to not repeat inquests for every person who have all died by the same means (e.g a train crash or some other disaster). A public enquiry has NEVER been used for a single death before. The inquiry that started was ordered to be wound up, but a verdict was given re his death. Tony Blair ordered the Hutton inquiry, which has less legal powers than an inquest, which is most odd considering the suspicions.

Blair ordered the public inquiry to get himself out of a very tight hole surrounded by journalists as the news broke on a flight back from Hong Kong, no?

 

[Techno303]

As someone has quite rightly pointed out above co-proxamol was/is a very popular choice for suicide. Years ago, when I worked as a forensic toxicologist we would regularly get co-proxomal deaths. I would primarily quantitate the amount of dextropropoxyphene and knowing the amount of paracetamol was not deemed so important. I forget what the toxic levels are now, but they are not very high which is why it is easy to OD on the drug. Clarke’s Analysis of Drugs and Poisons would be a good reference.

Anyway someone has pointed most of this out above. Contrary to what another poster said it seemed that the Doc knew what would be very effective at killing him.

Beeb link here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4221829.stm

 

[editor]

If he was the victim of a hit, a top barrister suggested that the tablets could have been placed next to the body to make it look like suidice.

That barrister bloke struck me as a bit odd (or a raging egotist). Why did he feel the need to suddenly start boasting about how important he is and how many Really, Really Important People ring him up on his phone?

 

[Jazzz]

The honcho from the Oxford Suicide research centre told Hutton that Kelly slit his wrist the 'correct' way, ie longitudinally, rather than laterally, IIRC. It'll be on the Hutton website.

Did the programme mention that bloke from Geneva who told Hutton that Kelly had told him that if there was an invasion of Iraq "I'll probably be found dead in the woods"?

I thought it was a lateral cut to the ulnar artery?

 

[Techno303]

Ah... when I was looking for info on dextropopoxyphene toxicity, all that was coming up was an Alex Jones article suggesting just that - which could explain the emphaticness. Emphaticity? Emphatitude?

Estimated minimum lethal dose is 500mg according to Clarke's.

 

[8ball]

I thought it was a lateral cut to the ulnar artery?

Makes little odds as without a serious heart condition a sliced ulnar atery won't kill you iirc

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Blair ordered the public inquiry to get himself out of a very tight hole surrounded by journalists as the news broke on a flight back from Hong Kong, no?

Who selected Hutton to preside I wonder?

He's an interesting choice, given that his rather strong connections with the security establishment go back at least to the early 1970's.

 

[laptop]

Estimated minimum lethal dose is 500mg according to Clarke's.

Ta.

So that's > 15 tablets.

Here's Craig Murry, who's unconventional but doesn't show any of the standard signs of fruitloopery:

It has been largely assumed, that because 29 tablets of the painkiller co-proxamol were missing from the blister packets in Dr Kelly's pockets, that he took all 29.

It was known by those close to them he had a strong aversion to taking tablets, but even if that were so, he could not have ingested all 29 tablets, because he regurgitated a large part of his stomach contents. The forensic biologist reported a large amount of vomit on the ground and all that remained in his stomach was residue equivalent to a fifth of one tablet. So the amount ingested did not represent much of an overdose.

It is important to note that gauging how much of a particular drug a person ingested is not an exact science.

One of Milroy's colleagues at the University of Sheffield, forensic toxicologist Professor Robert Forrest, has helpfully pointed out that concentrations of a drug in the blood increase markedly over time - as much as tenfold.

Since Dr Allan did not analyse Dr Kelly's blood for well over 24 hours, the concentration of co-proxamol components may have increased up to tenfold.

So while Dr Allan judged the amount of co-proxamol in the blood to be only a third of what is normally a fatal amount, this could mean that the actual amount ingested by Dr Kelly 24 hours or so earlier, was far less than a third of a fatal amount - possibly as little as a thirtieth.

here

 

[editor]

Ta.

So that's > 15 tablets.

Did you see the BBC program?

 

[Wilf]

I for one don't think he was actively murered by the state. Its just too risky to murder prominent professionals, already in the public eye, in the period immediately after he has caused them the problem - especially when there was a clear motive (for both the spooks and the govt). Result would be exactly this: plausible accusations that the govt had killed him. State's have far more effective and less risky ways of marginalising, threateing individuals.

Don't get me wrong - the british state has killed many inconvenient trouble makers - in Ireland and in a range of foreign conflicts. Crucial difference was that there was always another set of death squads or similar to blame it on.

I'd guess he was effectively driven to it by the British state rather than murdered by it. After the journalists first fucked him over the spin doctors and his own managers went for him. As well as the meetings he had with his own bosses, its unimaginable that there were not other pressures put on him - possible threat of prosecution for breach of the official secrets act? threat to sack him and leave him at the mercy of the press?

Don't think its impossible he was killed - but much more likely they simply fucked him up so much he was driven to a point of desparation where there was no alternative in his mind. Still leaves them with a large degree of guilt over his death. Cunts

 

[laptop]

Did you see the BBC program?

Nope. I had to finish Friday's work, 'cos I took the day off

 

[Techno303]

Ta.

So that's > 15 tablets.

Here's Craig Murry, who's unconventional but doesn't show any of the standard signs of fruitloopery:

I don’t know enough about the concentration increasing in blood thing to be able to comment on it. Off the top of my head I think it has to do with how much of the drug is protein bound therefore very dependent on the nature of the drug and so this should not really be considered a rule. I do know that dextropropoxyphene is very readily adsorbed and undergoes considerable first-pass metabolism. It’s major metabolite is also active and toxic.

 

[editor]

Nope. I had to finish Friday's work, 'cos I took the day off

I strongly suggest you watch it ASAP because it goes into some considerable detail about the salient points of the case, with leading experts directly offering some very interesting insights, particularly in relation to the highly variable amounts of co-proxamol needed to kill, and how other factors can make a difference .

 

[Jazzz]

But strangely all of the ones involved in the enquiry declined to be interviewed by the programme.

 

[Wilf]

But strangely all of the ones involved in the enquiry declined to be interviewed by the programme.

But what's your point? If someone carries out a murder (via a conspiracy of presumably compliant coppers, experts and the like) are they more or less likely to co-operte with a tv programme? Would't an unwillingness to speak to the prog make them look more suspicious?

 

[editor]

But strangely all of the ones involved in the enquiry declined to be interviewed by the programme.

If you wish to challenge the detailed expert analysis presented in the program by highly respected leading scientists, let's hear your credible evidence.

But if you're only here to sour this thread with loose, fact-free conspiracy claims and wild suggestions of "strange" goings on, or to regurgitate the source-free fruitloop shite you swallow up daily from lunatic sites, please don't bother.

 

[Techno303]

But strangely all of the ones involved in the enquiry declined to be interviewed by the programme.

I think I’m more inclined to believe Bob Forrest’s interpretation then any of the cranks you usually use to support your beliefs though Jazzz.

 

[Jazzz]

Would't an unwillingness to speak to the prog make them look more suspicious?

Well, yes, you said it, simple. The failure of the experts involved to defend themselves on the programme should certainly raise eyebrows.

But no one's saying that Dr.Kelly was murdered by a toxicologist.

 

[Techno303]

Defend themselves against what?

 

[Techno303]

Well, yes, you said it, simple. The failure of the experts involved to defend themselves on the programme should certainly raise eyebrows.

But no one's saying that Dr.Kelly was murdered by a toxicologist.

In the case of the toxicology it would seem that they got it right. Another peer agrees and laptop has pointed out that another peer has some concerns. This all appears like normal scientific analysis and thinking to me. How about you?

 

[Jazzz]

Even at best the amount of co-proxamol in Kelly's bloodstream would not normally be considered a lethal dose. However but that doesn't even take into account the possible raising of drug levels in blood after death which even questions whether he had that. One thing the BBC doc did properly address was that Hutton was not a proper coroner's inquest - the question of how he died was simply rubber-stamped. This means that Dr. Kelly really had a second-rate inquest for someone who had died a violent death whether self-inflicted or not.

The amount of blood at the scene was so small, and so not in accordance with severe arterial bleeding that the paramedics were driven to give a press conference about it. None of the experts who submitted vague phrases about the quantity of blood at the scene came on the programme to clarify their statements. We were invited to think that because 29 co-proxamols were missing in the packet found next to Dr.Kelly that meant that he had swallowed 29 tablets. Tremendously sloppy. Everywhere you look at it assumptions were made to fit a suicide verdict around the evidence. It remains a sham of an inquest.

 

[editor]

Even at best the amount of co-proxamol in Kelly's bloodstream would not normally be considered a lethal dose. However but that doesn't even take into account the possible raising of drug levels in blood after death which even questions whether he had that.

Hmm. Who to believe here?

Amateur bedroom sleuth Jazzz who likes to think he knows more than the world's leading authorities on structural engineering, demolition, construction, explosives and now toxicity and post mortems - or a bevy or hugely respected, massively qualified leaders in their respective fields?