David Kelly death not suicide, says Norman Baker MP

[detective-boy]

The investigation into his death singularly failed to do this at any point

The programme didn't have much at all about the investigation - Thames Valley Police conducted a full unexplained death enquiry (similar to a murder enquiry in all relevant respects) with Chief Officer oversight because of the clear sensitivity of the issues involved.

The problem is not that a thorough investigation did not take place - we don't know whether it was or it wasn't because it hasn't been tested in any depth in any public forum. (Nor would it have been at a standard inquest to be honest - Coroner would probably have called the senior investigating officer to explain what was done and their conclusions and a handful of other officers (maybe))

 

[Kaka Tim]

The programme didn't have much at all about the investigation - Thames Valley Police conducted a full unexplained death enquiry (similar to a murder enquiry in all relevant respects) with Chief Officer oversight because of the clear sensitivity of the issues involved.

The problem is not that a thorough investigation did not take place - we don't know whether it was or it wasn't because it hasn't been tested in any depth in any public forum. (Nor would it have been at a standard inquest to be honest - Coroner would probably have called the senior investigating officer to explain what was done and their conclusions and a handful of other officers (maybe))

Well I'm pretty sure they didn't interview any likely suspects -

'Well Tony/Alasidair/Mr Spook - where were you on the afternoon of etc ... '

 

[detective-boy]

Well I'm pretty sure they didn't interview any likely suspects -

'Well Tony/Alasidair/Mr Spook - where were you on the afternoon of etc ... '

Are you saying they should have done? Or simply being humorous?

 

[Backatcha Bandit]

It's funny.

I could have sworn that the Thames Valley Police 'investigation into the circumstances surrounding Dr Kelly's death' began an hour before the poor bloke even left the house - almost 9 hours before he was reported missing.

Pretty clever considering their apparent inability to count to 'three'.

That'll teach me to read 'Reports' written by the guy the spooks get in to get them off the hook when things get messy.

What my bookshelf still lacks is a decent "title which addresses the relationship between government, policy and war".

 

[Maidmarian]

Fair-ish point Aa , however, what I don't get is : why assassinate the bloke AFTER he's blown the gaffe ? ---- woulda made more sense to off him BEFORE iyswim.

 

[Kaka Tim]

Fair-ish point Aa , however, what I don't get is : why assassinate the bloke AFTER he's blown the gaffe ? ---- woulda made more sense to off him BEFORE iyswim.

Well he'd blown the gaffe 'a bit' but only though off record briefings- if he'd have gone on the record he could have casued a mountain of shit for the government. He may have also had inciminating memos, e-mails, notes with dates, times places could have proved alll sorts of things about deliberate deception and the involvment of number 10 in the intelligence gathering process (all stuff which is strongly suspected by most people, but not 100%provable). And if Kelly gone on record, others may have followed.

It could quite conceiveably have forced Blair to resign.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

If he was murdered by some form of 'extreme news management' group then I'd guess it'd be more likely to be a matter of setting an example than merely shutting him up.

"Cross us and you'll end up dead (like Kelly) or up on bogus kiddy-fiddling charges (like his US near-equivalent Scott Ritter) or with your wife's cover as a covert agent spying on very nasty people blown (like Ambassador Wilson)"

The modus operandi of the people running the news management operation was to make it clear that calling their big fat lies into question was going to result in severe retribution. If Kelly was murdered though, it's a step beyond what was already happening (which was nasty enough), so I still find suicide, possibly in the face of threats we aren't aware of, somewhat more plausible.

 

[detective-boy]

I could have sworn that the Thames Valley Police 'investigation into the circumstances surrounding Dr Kelly's death' began an hour before the poor bloke even left the house - almost 9 hours before he was reported missing.

Source?

 

[Backatcha Bandit]

Source?

Hutton Report:

TVP Tactical Support Major Incident Policy Book: Operation 'Mason' Between 1430 17.07.03 and 0930 18.07.03, DCI Alan Young - not for release - Police operational information.

http://www.the-hutton-inquiry.org.uk/content/evidence-lists/evidence-tvp.htm

As to the nature of 'Operation Mason':

Thames Valley Police has told the Daily Mail that the Operation Mason file details their investigation into the circumstances surrounding Dr Kelly's death.

Sue Reid, The Daily Mail 3/6/04

Feel free to dismiss the 'Daily Mail'. However, if you do, perhaps you would care to speculate on the nature of this 'Tactical Support', or perhaps the nature of the 'Major Incident' in the TVP's area that started many hours before the unfortunate Dr. Kelly was even reported missing?

As for TVP's apparent inability to count to 'three' - again, it's in the Hutton Report, should you ever wish to read it.

MR KNOX: Were there any tracks, as it were, around the wooded area you were able to see, where the body was, or had the person obviously walked in through the woods?

MS HOLMES: Not that I remember seeing, but ...

-

MR KNOX: And what did you then do?

MS HOLMES: We walked back towards the car. On the way to the car we met three police officers and Paul took them back to show them where the body was, and I went back to the car.

MR KNOX: Did you meet the police officers in the woods or after you got out of the woods?

MS HOLMES: No, on the track, just between the woods and the car.

-

MR DINGEMANS.: And did you help them when they had arrived?

MR CHAPMAN: Yes. As we were going down the path we met three police officers coming the other way that were from CID. We identified ourselves to them. They were not actually aware that (a) the body had been found or we were out searching this area. They I think had just come out on their own initiative to look at the area. I informed them we had found the body and they asked me to take them back to indicate where it was.

MR DINGEMANS.: So these were not the people you had arranged to meet, as it were?

MR CHAPMAN: No, because this was only 2 or 3 minutes after I had made the phone call.

MR DINGEMANS.: How did you know they were police officers?

MR CHAPMAN: Because they showed me their Thames Valley Police identification.

MR DINGEMANS.: Do you recall their names?

MR CHAPMAN: Only one of them was DC Coe.

MR DINGEMANS.: Did you show them the body?

MR CHAPMAN: Yes. We walked back up the hill with the three of them and then they decided as they got a bit closer to the edge of the wood that I needed only to take one of the officers in, so I took DC Coe in to show him where the body was.

-

MR KNOX: And what did they say to you?

COE: Mr Chapman told me that they had found a body in the woods.

MR KNOX: Who were you with at this time?

COE: Detective Constable Shields.

MR KNOX: It is just the two of you?

COE: Yes.

Holmes

Chapman

Coe

There were three other witnesses that contradict DC Coe regarding how many other people he was with when they arrived at the scene.

All there in the report, for anyone who cares to actually read it.

 

[detective-boy]

Feel free to dismiss the 'Daily Mail'. However, if you do, perhaps you would care to speculate on the nature of this 'Tactical Support', or perhaps the nature of the 'Major Incident' in the TVP's area that started many hours before the unfortunate Dr. Kelly was even reported missing?

I was aware of that document.

There are a couple of points to note:

1. The Tactical Support unit in TVP is the equivalent of the Met's Territorial Support Group (i.e. a group of centrally-based uniformed officers available to assist divisions with unusual, usually uniformed policing functions. As I understand it they also provide the initial force response in relation to things like Public Order and Search Teams.

2. They would NOT be the unit tasked to conduct an unexplained death, that would be the Major Investigation Unit or, at very least a divisional CID unit (the Tactical Support unit are NOT a detective unit).

3. If Dr Kelly's existence and address were known prior to his death, and especially if there were fears / complaints about media harassment, it would be quite likely that the TSU would be asked to support the local division in some way in relation to that - by regular visits if not by any sort of permanent presence. That could well have been given the name "Operation MASON".

4. Once he went missing, as an Operation name was already assigned, it would not be unusual for it to be used for the missing person enquiry and there would be nothing to stop if also being used for the unexplained death enquiry.

Without more information than the single line description in the list of documents appended to the Hutton Report it certainly cannot be used as "proof" that TVP commenced a missing person enquiry before he went missing.