David Icke on the Russell Brand show

[Blagsta]

I don't think he is. He says that Jews are and have been as much victims of the worldwide conspiracy as anyone

He is. He quotes the protocols of the elders of zion as evidence for a conspiracy.

 

[butchersapron]

I don't think so. From the same chapter:



I think that passage rather concerns the question of whether the Warburgs were bankrolling naziism does it not?

Not really no, the chapter doesn't focus on that in any substantial manner, and certainly not enough to support your claim that the chapter is centrally about that - it's not - it's barely mentioned again. It's about whether the Warburg book is a forgery. Or else we could clain the chapter is centrally concerned with the russiab revolution of 1917 as this too is mentioned in the chapter.

 

[longdog]

Does this make us a cabal?

How many cliques of one do we need for a quorum of crowds of cliques?

 

[Blagsta]

Oh don't be ridiculous, this is so old hat. He says nothing that is anti-semitic or racist at all. This accusation is simply spurious bumfluff.

His speaking out against racism is far more convincing than I've heard from anyone else.

The philosophy that we are all the same cosmic consciousness is entirely incompatible with racism, and that's all there is to it.

Come on Jazzz, have some fucking honesty for once. You know he is, we've had this discussion before. He uses the protocols of the elders of zion as part of his arguments. You know it's an anti-semitic fake and you know he uses it in his arguments.

 

[Jazzz]

Yes it can because he's claiming two world wars and the russian revolution were the result of a Jewish conspiracy that worked with non-Jews in order to further their own ends. It's a racialized conspiracy theory.

No, it's de-racialised. The point is that the elites will conspire against the masses regardless of their 'race'.

 

[Meltingpot]

He is. He quotes the protocols of the elders of zion as evidence for a conspiracy.

I know, but he claims it wasn't Jews who were behind them but the Knights Templars; (Temple of ) Sion rather than Zion. At least that was his position in the days when I saw him speak (on the Robot's Rebellion tour, 1994).

 

[Jazzz]

Come on Jazzz, have some fucking honesty for once. You know he is, we've had this discussion before. He uses the protocols of the elders of zion as part of his arguments. You know it's an anti-semitic fake and you know he uses it in his arguments.

Whatever the accuracy of that, his arguments are not anti-semitic; therefore he is no anti-semite. This is piss-poor guilt by association.

 

[nosos]

No, it's de-racialised. The point is that the elites will conspire against the masses regardless of their 'race'.

Come on Jazz, that's really weak. If it's deracialised then why does he explicitly say that it's a Jewish conspiracy working with non-Jews in order to further their own (Jewish) ends. The only classifications of people in the claim are conspirators/non-conspirators, Jews/non-Jews. Yes, he accepts that it's an elite conspiracy (i.e. not all Jews are in it and it's not in the interests of all Jews) but so what? I've talked to lots of Nazis on the internet who at least have the intelligence to accept that (a) the idea of a conspiracy that all the Jews are in on is a basic absurdity and (b) denying that the actions of the conspirators harm a great number of Jews (obvious case being the Holocaust) is equally absurd. To infer from these two claims that it's not an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory is really quite spectacularly unjustified. It doesn't follow in the slightest.

 

[butchersapron]

I know, but he claims it wasn't Jews who were behind them but the Knights Templars; (Temple of ) Sion rather than Zion. At least that was his position in the days when I saw him speak (on the Robot's Rebellion tour, 1994).

Behind what?

 

[nosos]

Whatever the accuracy of that, his arguments are not anti-semitic

He blames a Jewish conspiracy for much of the suffering and death that the world has suffered in the 20th century. It's about as anti-semitic as you can get!

 

[Jazzz]

And allow me to remind the forum of the fact that I am Jewish and my family escaped the nazis.

 

[Blagsta]

I know, but he claims it wasn't Jews who were behind them but the Knights Templars; (Temple of ) Sion rather than Zion. At least that was his position in the days when I saw him speak (on the Robot's Rebellion tour, 1994).

This is just gibberish.

 

[Meltingpot]

Behind what?

Behind the Protocols.

 

[nosos]

And allow me to remind the forum of the fact that I am Jewish and my family escaped the nazis.

So? No one's accusing you of being an anti-semite. That would be "piss-poor guilt by association". I'm a big fan of Hanlon's razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

 

[Blagsta]

Whatever the accuracy of that, his arguments are not anti-semitic; therefore he is no anti-semite. This is piss-poor guilt by association.

Clutching at straws Jazzz.

 

[Blagsta]

And allow me to remind the forum of the fact that I am Jewish and my family escaped the nazis.

So what?

 

[Blagsta]

Behind the Protocols.

The protocols are a fraudulent document you fool.

 

[Jazzz]

Come on Jazz, that's really weak. If it's deracialised then why does he explicitly say that it's a Jewish conspiracy working with non-Jews in order to further their own (Jewish) ends. The only classifications of people in the claim are conspirators/non-conspirators, Jews/non-Jews. Yes, he accepts that it's an elite conspiracy (i.e. not all Jews are in it and it's not in the interests of all Jews) but so what? I've talked to lots of Nazis on the internet who at least have the intelligence to accept that (a) the idea of a conspiracy that all the Jews are in on is a basic absurdity and (b) denying that the actions of the conspirators harm a great number of Jews (obvious case being the Holocaust) is equally absurd. To infer from these two claims that it's not an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory is really quite spectacularly unjustified. It doesn't follow in the slightest.

No, this is simply crap. It's no more anti-semitic to accuse an elite clique of Jews of taking part in creating WWII as it would be anti-american to accuse an elite clique of Americans for creating [insert war]

 

[butchersapron]

Behind the Protocols.

That's even worse then - it's well known they were a forgery by the russian secret police based on a a classic piece of 19th century french liberal anti-authoritarianism called "The Dialogue in Hell between Machiavelli and Montesquieu". This is not in any doubt.

 

[Jazzz]

So? No one's accusing you of being an anti-semite. That would be "piss-poor guilt by association". I'm a big fan of Hanlon's razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

butchersapron is repeatedly insisting that I truly believe Icke is an anti-semite! Which I can assure you is not the case, and I think my family history is relevant there.

 

[nosos]

No, this is simply crap. It's no more anti-semitic to accuse an elite clique of Jews of taking part in creating WWII as it would be anti-american to accuse an elite clique of Americans for creating [insert war]

The Americans aren't a race so it's obviously not an analogy. What would be analogous is attributing the recent American penchent for war to the machinations of the numerous Jews within the neo-Conservative movement in America. They work with non-Jews but only to further their own ends. This would quite obviously be anti-Semitic. Likewise Ike's innane ramblings.

 

[Jazzz]

Clutching at straws Jazzz.

I'll forgive you.

 

[nosos]

butchersapron is repeatedly insisting that I truly believe Icke is an anti-semite!

All I can see is him pulling apart your 'research'. Why would anyone think you believe Icke is an anti-semite when you're desperately trying (and failing) to defend the contrary claim?

 

[butchersapron]

butchersapron is repeatedly insisting that I truly believe Icke is an anti-semite! Which I can assure you is not the case, and I think my family history is relevant there.

I've not said anything of the sort. I do though, think that you're suppressing the latent anti-semitism of the traditions on which he so profitably draws and in which you too are up to your eyeballs.

 

[Meltingpot]

The protocols are a fraudulent document you fool.

I'm not saying I agree, I'm only trying to represent Icke's view accurately. What he's claiming is that the document was written by members of a secret society (the Temple of Sion, a descendant of the Knights Templars) and then falsely attributed to Jews. So, he's not saying it's a Jewish conspiracy.

 

[Meltingpot]

That's even worse then - it's well known they were a forgery by the russian secret police based on a a classic piece of 19th century french liberal anti-authoritarianism called "The Dialogue in Hell between Machiavelli and Montesquieu". This is not in any doubt.

Fair enough.

 

[Jazzz]

I've not said anything of the sort. I do though, think that you're suppressing the latent anti-semitism of the traditions on which he so profitably draws and in which you too are up to your eyeballs.

My apologies, it was blagsta saying that.

 

[butchersapron]

I'm not saying I agree, I'm only trying to represent Icke's view accurately. What he's claiming is that the document was written by members of a secret society (the Temple of Sion, a descendant of the Knights Templars) and then falsely attributed to Jews. So, he's not saying it's a Jewish conspiracy.

Yeah, the Russian Okhrana.

 

[fattboy]

Its almost like he deliberately comes out with this lizard bullshit to discredit his saner theories. hmm - now there's a thought

exactly, i reckon he might be an inside man,a bit like michael moore probably is, cos theres a lot of truth in his other stuff but ppl kinda throw the baby out with the bathwater when he starts chatting about reptiles.

 

[smokedout]

What he's claiming is that the document was written by members of a secret society (the Temple of Sion, a descendant of the Knights Templars)

which given the temple of sion were invented by a bunch of surrealist pranksters shows the level of his analysis