'Conspiraloons' in the ascendancy?

[Paul Marsh]

Bolded bit : or, if their claims are wilder, only the burden of raising doubt -- of any kind.

Spot on to both posts, anyway.

A further tactic is not to make specific claims themselves (that way they would be shot down) but instead to state "critics of the 9/11 Commission state....." or "sceptics comment that........"

This creates the image of an emerging movement or gathering storm, often out of very little.

The Reinvestigate 9/11 advert in the Independent is a classic of its type for this:

http://www.reinvestigate911.org/pages/advertisementfinal.pdf

Note for example the line:

"Speculation is now rife, not least in Pakistan and Afghanistan, that 9/11 was
not just the result of gross incompetence but some sort of an inside job."

No names, no quotes, no organisations or publications cited.

If a student submitted that in an essay, they would be lucky to get a third, yet this is the approach taken by people who expect MPs and cabinet ministers to listen to them.

 

[Pickman's model]

on the way home from work passed some wanky hippy shit centre in hackney with '911: the greatest lie ever packaged' on the wall.

 

[William of Walworth]

on the way home from work passed some wanky hippy shit centre in hackney with '911: the greatest lie ever packaged' on the wall.

Where's that then? Some squatted 'social centre' or something?

 

[William of Walworth]

Oh dear, i have just recieved an email from the remnants of the London Social Forum, seems like many of them are now buying into the 'loose change' conspiracy paradigm, etc. even citing ex UKIP M.P's!

Is this what has happened to the Anti-Globalisation movement?

...and not by accident either.

More on this aspect, please ...

Something that may? tie in with this : Shane Collins, sometime Green and anti-globalisation activist, seems in more recent times to have turned into a 9/11 troofer type ....

I liked Shane personally when I knew him prior to 2006 (not seen him since), but I think he's headed in a completely bizarre direction ... perhaps he's not alone in this by any means.

 

[William of Walworth]

Note for example the line:

"Speculation is now rife, not least in Pakistan and Afghanistan, that 9/11 was
not just the result of gross incompetence but some sort of an inside job."

No names, no quotes, no organisations or publications cited.

If a student submitted that in an essay, they would be lucky to get a third, yet this is the approach taken by people who expect MPs and cabinet ministers to listen to them.

Spot on, this loose habit of vague, generalised doubt raising aka 'asking essential questions' is very common among a lot of CTer types .

Take note, CTers : slack research methods and even slacker sourcing = 21% at most, and a PROJECT FAIL !

 

[Paul Marsh]

Something that may? tie in with this : Shane Collins, sometime Green and anti-globalisation activist, seems in more recent times to have turned into a 9/11 troofer type ....

I liked Shane personally when I knew him prior to 2006 (not seen him since), but I think he's headed in a completely bizarre direction ... perhaps he's not alone in this by any means.

Collins has long been listed as one of the players in 'truth' circles:

http://paulstott.typepad.com/photos/the_players/index.html

he was certainly quite active in the UK and Ireland 9/11 Truth Movement, until the plug was pulled on that particular game.

He seems to have been quiet on the issue recently.

 

[editor]

I know Shane very well and he's never come across a full blown 'Troofer,' although he seems to have been drawn into some of their cobblers.

As I told him last time I saw him, it's a sure sure vote loser for the Green Party. Most normal people don't give a flying fuck about 9/11 holographic yarns from 2001 - they're more interested in discussing a green future.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

I know Shane very well and he's never come across a full blown 'Troofer,' although he seems to have been drawn into some of their cobblers.

As I told him last time I saw him, it's a sure sure vote loser for the Green Party. Most normal people don't give a flying fuck about 9/11 holographic yarns from 2001 - they're more interested in discussing a green future.

Is it the same Shane who does a lot on dope-related issues?

911 is certainly not a vote winner in this country, but US Greens and the candidate for president last year make a fairly big thing of it.

Thus, a few years ago a motion came before conference (Swansea IIRC) to call for a re-opening of the investigation. It was narrowly defeated. Vote winner or not, I think that was the wrong decision. The amount of dis-satisfaction among even commission members plus the fact that Zelicow is known to have been on the blower to the White House every evening somewhat backs me up.

 

[Paul Marsh]

Is it the same Shane who does a lot on dope-related issues?

Thus, a few years ago a motion came before conference (Swansea IIRC) to call for a re-opening of the investigation. It was narrowly defeated. Vote winner or not, I think that was the wrong decision. The amount of dis-satisfaction among even commission members plus the fact that Zelicow is known to have been on the blower to the White House every evening somewhat backs me up.

It is the same Shane Collins, he proposed the motion to the Swansea conference (which in the end was not voted upon) Whether it was subsequently I'm not sure.

Darren Johnson wisely put up an amendment to Collins proposal, as it is obvious that whatever the grounds for a further enquiry, this is an absolute iceberg for the Greens.

A report on the Swansea Green party conference and 9/11 truth is here.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Thanks for the link Paul.

From which:

"Conspiracy theories and anti-semitism do not tend to go down well on the doorsteps for any electoral party."

This is horseshit though. The "anti-semite" charge is an utter straw man and as offensive as any of the spurious charges 911CW (whose stuff I have read btw) cites the "truth movement as guilty of.

As for conspiracy theories not going down well on the doorstep, there's conspiracy theories put around by the establishment press about asylum claimants, migrants and Islam that seem to have been pretty useful to fascists and taken as read by the larger 2 parties at least.

As I saw it, the original Swansea motion was just a matter of backing up a sister party, not a huge issue. However, if it's an iceberg the USGP don't seem to think so.

 

[8den]

Thanks for the link Paul.

From which:

"Conspiracy theories and anti-semitism do not tend to go down well on the doorsteps for any electoral party."

This is horseshit though. The "anti-semite" charge is an utter straw man and as offensive as any of the spurious charges 911CW (whose stuff I have read btw) cites the "truth movement as guilty of.

Oh fuck right off. I've linked time and time again to how many of the conspiracyloonery claims come from organisations like the AFP with a racist agenda.

Piss off you worthless little cunt.

 

[William of Walworth]

If you edit away 8den's abuse ( ) he does have something of a point, you can't just dismiss the anti semitic links charge. There've been a proven number of CT-ist websites (such as whale.to) carrying links to Holocaust revisionist material. More sensible CTers would be better off disassociating themselves from such sources/sites rather than just dismissing the suggestion as a smear. We've done Icke's coded/borderline antisemitism to death on here as well.

 

[editor]

This is horseshit though. The "anti-semite" charge is an utter straw man and as offensive as any of the spurious charges 911CW (whose stuff I have read btw) cites the "truth movement as guilty of..

No it's not. The Troof movement is littered with anti-Semite scumbags. Are you really trying to deny that?

Oh fuck right off. I've linked time and time again to how many of the conspiracyloonery claims come from organisations like the AFP with a racist agenda.

Piss off you worthless little cunt.

Tone it down, please.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Oh fuck right off. I've linked time and time again to how many of the conspiracyloonery claims come from organisations like the AFP with a racist agenda.

Piss off you worthless little cunt.

Some racists espouse agenda X

Therefore all proponents of agenda X are racists or playing into racist hands.

And Polar bears live in the arctic cirlce. Eskimos live in the arctic, therefore eskimos are polar bears.

The BNP opposed the Iraq war btw, are you going to condemn the MILLION RACISTS who marched on Feb 15 2003?

Will it make my point more worthy if I swear a lot?

Fuckity fuck fuck shit cunt wank.

Will this do?

Funny how one side of this debate is accused of frothing lunacy, but it's clear in this case where the froth and faulty logic is comming from.

 

[Paul Marsh]

Oddly enough one of the 9/11 truth activists I met at Swansea was Justin Walker from North Yorkshire. He was an old Green Party member (a former candidate) who had returned to push the issue of 9/11 truth.

When the story about truth activist Nick Kollerstrom and his holocaust denial broke, (which I know was all over this site, amongst others) who was one of his staunchest defenders?

Justin Walker.

The Green Party need to avoid such people like the plague. And believe me, the 'truth' movement has plenty of them.

 

[editor]

Funny how one side of this debate is accused of frothing lunacy, but it's clear in this case where the froth and faulty logic is comming from.

Yours by all account, seeing as Paul March has just ripped your pitiful argument into tiny pieces.

Fuckity fuck fuck shit cunt wank.

Oh, and no more of this either please.

 

[William of Walworth]

Oddly enough one of the 9/11 truth activists I met at Swansea was Justin Walker from North Yorkshire. He was an old Green Party member (a former candidate) who had returned to push the issue of 9/11 truth.

When the story about truth activist Nick Kollerstrom and his holocaust denial broke, (which I know was all over this site, amongst others) who was one of his staunchest defenders?

Justin Walker.

The Green Party need to avoid such people like the plague. And believe me, the 'truth' movement has plenty of them.

Spot on ....

Derail risk alert : Any direct link on Justin Walker being a Kollerstrom defender?

 

[kyser_soze]

Oddly enough one of the 9/11 truth activists I met at Swansea was Justin Walker from North Yorkshire. He was an old Green Party member (a former candidate) who had returned to push the issue of 9/11 truth.

When the story about truth activist Nick Kollerstrom and his holocaust denial broke, (which I know was all over this site, amongst others) who was one of his staunchest defenders?

Justin Walker.

The Green Party need to avoid such people like the plague. And believe me, the 'truth' movement has plenty of them.

Plenty of unpleasantness bubbling under the fluffy image of the green movement tho - everything from those who espouse 'Ark' theories to back-to-the-forest types.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

All political parties attract eccentrics, GPEW is no different. This is not to downgrade nasty scumbags to mere "eccentric" - they happen to be nasty scumbag eccentrics.

Of course it is best to be wary of such people. I'm more concerned that Optimum Population Trust had a stand in Blackpool. Green Left put together and distributed counter-propaganda and with others are making (probably successful) efforts to ensure this doesnt happen again.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Yours by all account, seeing as Paul March has just ripped your pitiful argument into tiny pieces.
Oh, and no more of this either please.

I dont see that Paul has or hasnt "ripped an arguement to tiny pieces". We are having a fairly balanced discussion, something another poster seems entirely incapable of. At least your approach to both me and him/her is balanced.

 

[editor]

All political parties attract eccentric, GPEW is no different. Of course it is best to be wary of such people.

Oh, that makes it alright then, even when they're high up in the organisation.


Why are you excusing this shit?

 

[Paul Marsh]

Spot on ....

Derail risk alert : Any direct link on Justin Walker being a Kollerstrom defender?

Posting (in a rather restrained manner, as Justin below)

http://www.911forum.org.uk/board/viewtopic.php?t=14562&sid=a2f9421cd101d3f9da41c7a3f14524f7

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Oh, that makes it alright then, even when they're high up in the organisation.


Why are you excusing this shit?

Which ones are high up? (if you're reffering to someone who ran for Parliament you'll find it's very easy to do for a small party)

Of course I'm not excusing it. Not in any way. But I've been around the block a few times and know that tories, labour, LD, Greens, UKIP and others all attract people with weird and sometimes offensive views. Not an excuse, just an observation.

Some far rights are attracted to Green politics, it's pretty bloody small though.

The far-right play up green politics too (the fascists once cited "Small is Beautiful" as a big influence - doesnt mean it's a bad book).

This is all complicated, nuanced stuff like the whole (largely) fruitful debate on this thread.

 

[William of Walworth]

Cheers for that link Paul.

Sooner you than me for the task of monitoring 9/11 discussion sites and the like though. Quite apart from Justin's post, the general wildness and barminess of the content of posts all over that site (I've dipped my toe in before) would be a severe trial to the patience of anyone who isn't a fully paid up '9/11-troof' obsessive.

Conspiracists in general, 9/11 troofers in particular, with the way they talk and post all over their sites, do a pretty effective job of alienating anyone who's not predisposed to believe them.

That's why the word 'cult' is right on the button, and that's why the Greens shouldn't have anything to do with the 9/11 crowd if they (the Greens) are halfway sensible. Shane's always been perfectly sensible and sane on most other stuff, I speculate? that he's despaired at times at the sheer counterproductiveness of some of his fellow 9/11-ers ... at least I hope he has!

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

"the Greens shouldn't have anything to do with the 9/11 crowd if they (the Greens) are halfway sensible"

As I said, the GP candidate for US president (2008) has raised many questions on 911, and it didnt seem to damage her credibility too much. ETA: She was of course a speaker at the conference mentioned in the OP.

I understand the need fully to be careful but I also understand the need to not be frightened off some issues just because some activists on those issues hold "out there" or offensive views.

Another case in point - the anti-Federal Reserve movement in the US is stuffed with right wingers (even though their Jeffersonian remedy is a NATIONALISED bank, also on the lines of GPEW policy drawn up by a Green-Left member).

Does this mean the Fed is good? We are back to eskimos being polar bears again.

If the left do not have a solid and well espoused critique and response to the banking heist we run the risk of being out manouvered by the right. This is pretty much happening already.

 

[kyser_soze]

As I said, the GP candidate for US president (2008) has raised many questions on 911, and it didnt seem to damage her credibility too much.

Yes, because as a candidacy it already had stack of credibility, didn't it?

The thing is, as is usual for CTers like yourself, and despite claiming you want 'nuanced' conversation, you are implying that anyone who questions CTs about 9/11 also thinks that the current narrative is complete and finished. This is rubbish - I don't think the USG was involved in 9/11, but I also know for damn sure that there's a lot we don't know about how the US - with the largest intel network in the world - managed to miss it (which I've explained any number of times IMO came down to office politics and conflicting intelligence ideologies leading to a bad risk assessment being made).

I'd also suggest that, no matter how many inquiries, no matter how many classfied documents were revealed etc, that unless the end result was 'Yes the USG was up to it's necks in it, it was all a PNAC plot to invade Afghanistan and Iraq', you won't be satisfied because you already know the truth - any conclusion reached, no matter the extent and quality of the evidence presented, would have to confirm what you already 'know', and anything that didn't conform to this would be rejected as untruth. Same goes for swine flu and the rest of it.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

KZ

as a candidacy it already had stack of credibility, didn't it?

The US is one place where non duopoly parties have even worse chance than here. High status "successful" "3rd party" campaigns are pretty rare. I think she stands good comparrison to Nader as a credible candidate for USGP.

you are implying that anyone who questions CTs about 9/11 also thinks that the current narrative is complete and finished.

You certainly THINK I'm implying it and I would be wary of the dangers of implying it. I certainly try not to and I dont think I have here. Anyone who knows anything about US government history knows they are the most prolific and varied backers of terror and tyranny since world war 2 at least. So any "CT" is already building on that knowledge and in many cases drawing from the detail of it (Paperclip, Gladio, Tonkin, Iran Contra, Backing OBL etc. etc.)

you won't be satisfied because you already know the truth - any conclusion reached, no matter the extent and quality of the evidence presented, would have to confirm what you already 'know', and anything that didn't conform to this would be rejected as untruth.

This again is typical cod pschology and supposition. besides which, I dont know the truth.

 

[Jazzz]

That's just a lie, plain and simple, and if I could be arsed (trust me, I can't), I could compile a list that would have to involve tens thousands of people to cover all the planning, technology, science and execution of the endless barking 'theories' you've posted up here.

Really editor

that would be YOUR list, not mine. The mendacity is all yours, as is the blatant hypocrisy already exposed. But you 've never been someone to hold up your hands and go 'it's a fair cop guv', ain'tch'a?

I can't be bothered to address your nonsense about the phone calls on 9/11 (which are, I'm sorry to say, absolutely not hard evidence for anything)

 

[claphamboy]

But you 've never been someone to hold up your hands and go 'it's a fair cop guv', ain'tch'a?

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Get with the whakery of this "loon". Perhaps some self appointed urbanites can swear about him to aid credibility of their case. Very effective ploy that one.