'Conspiraloons' in the ascendancy?

[editor]

However, anyone who is knowledgeable about his biography, the history of Israel, Zionist ideology and the way secret services in general operate will have at least a strong suspicion that he was.

Anyone who finds this idea inherently improbable is, in my view, psychologically predisposed to irrational skepticism with regard to conspiracies.

So anyone who doesn't nod their head in enthusiastic agreement with your evidence-free speculation can only be suffering from a condition which leaves them "psychologically predisposed to irrational skepticism"?

LOL. What a joker you are.

 

[goldenecitrone]

I read somewhere that Hitler was actually a woman. Now, there's absolutely no proof of this whatsoever, not a single shred of evidence, but anyone with a truly open, questioning, ungullible mind will at least give this idea some serious consideration in light of all the other lies and deceptions we are fed on a daily basis. That, for me, is the difference between the sheep and the enlightened gods of the future.

 

[trevhagl]

I read somewhere that Hitler was actually a woman. Now, there's absolutely no proof of this whatsoever, not a single shred of evidence, but anyone with a truly open, questioning, ungullible mind will at least give this idea some serious consideration in light of all the other lies and deceptions we are fed on a daily basis. That, for me, is the difference between the sheep and the enlightened gods of the future.

Now is that really likely?? LIKELY is the word.

Anyway, moving on, making my way through the Richard Tomlinson book and he says there were plans to bump off Milosevic during the Serbian crisis, and they planned to off him in a tunnel, causing a crash by blinding him with a strong light! The plan was abandoned but...

Can anyone on here think of a similar scenario involving someone else?

 

[phildwyer]

So anyone who doesn't nod their head in enthusiastic agreement with your evidence-free speculation can only be suffering from a condition which leaves them "psychologically predisposed to irrational skepticism"?

It's not speculation at all. Just read up a bit about Maxwell and you'll see what I mean.

He kept his connections very quiet while he was alive. I remember people who didn't even know he was Israeli.

 

[phildwyer]

I read somewhere that Hitler was actually a woman. Now, there's absolutely no proof of this whatsoever, not a single shred of evidence, but anyone with a truly open, questioning, ungullible mind will at least give this idea some serious consideration in light of all the other lies and deceptions we are fed on a daily basis. That, for me, is the difference between the sheep and the enlightened gods of the future.

An accurate analogy would be if Hitler was given a gala funeral by the National Organization of Women, at which Germaine Greer gave the eulogy, in which she said: "Hitler has rendered greater services to the cause of feminism than I can say here today."

Then I would indeed suspect that he was a woman, as would anyone.

 

[claphamboy]

Now is that really likely?? LIKELY is the word.

Anyway, moving on, making my way through the Richard Tomlinson book and he says there were plans to bump off Milosevic during the Serbian crisis, and they planned to off him in a tunnel, causing a crash by blinding him with a strong light! The plan was abandoned but...

Can anyone on here think of a similar scenario involving someone else?

Tomlinson was writing his book PRIOR to Diana's death and changed the story so he could cash in on the crash and sell more copies to mugs like you.

There was NO evidence and NO reliable witnesses to back-up the ‘bright-light’ fairy-tail, yet there was plenty of evidence and witnesses to the contrary – how many more fucking times does this need repeating before it sinks into your thick head?

It is the content of the memorandum that is in dispute.

Pre-1998: Richard Tomlinson’s recollection of the memorandum was of an
assassination plan that had only one operational option – a drive-past ambush while Slobodan Milosevic was visiting Switzerland for peace talks. He documented this in the manuscripts for his book.

Post-1998: Richard Tomlinson’s recollection now had three operational options, including one, a car accident that very specifically mirrored the key elements of the crash in the Alma underpass. These key elements were by then in the public domain.

Operation Paget Report page 763

About the changes in his account before and after the crash, he explained that due to the passage of time and ‘my deeply felt anger towards MI6 it may be that I wrongly linked this capability to the Milosevic minute. When I came out of prison I was strongly embittered towards MI6 and certainly wanted to cause them embarrassment and difficulty and this may have contributed to my mixing of my knowledge of techniques with my eventual account.’

Operation Paget Report page 762

 

[editor]

It's not speculation at all. Just read up a bit about Maxwell and you'll see what I mean.

You have ZERO hard evidence. Nothing. Not a scrap. Not a sausage.

Yet in your bizarre world, anyone who doesn't agree with your proof-untroubled speculation is instantly dismissed as suffering from a mental condition which leaves them "psychologically predisposed to irrational skepticism."

If there's any irrationality going on here, it's all yours by the looks of things and you've pwned yourself like a total mug here.

 

[frogwoman]

So, the existnce of Operation Gladio and Israeli false flag operations and the like is a reason to believe whatever bonkers theory someone made up one day? It is exactly the opposite IMO, just because NATO, the Israeli government, the British government are full of shit it doesn't mean that you have to beleive some unsourced, uncredible rubbish you see on youtube and that might have been, for all you know, made up by the government they claim to despise

 

[phildwyer]

You have ZERO hard evidence. Nothing. Not a scrap. Not a sausage.

Sure I do. I've already mentioned the quote from Yitzhak Shamir at Maxwell's funeral. What do you think that meant?

And why, pray tell, was Maxwell given a state funeral anyway? There's certainly nothing in his overt activities that would justify it.

There's plenty more too: the Czech arms deal business has been fairly well documented I believe. Not that this proves he was a lifelong Mossad agent--anyone from his background in his position would likely have done the same in 1948. But there's tons of other suggestive evidence as well.

Would it stand up in a court of law? Of course not: that's why they call it a secret service. But in my view a rational person would have to give at least some credence to the idea. Only an irrational person would dismiss it out of hand. But then, there are plenty of irrational people around.

 

[phildwyer]

Just to pre-empt any howls of "no evidence," this is from Wiki.

I shouldn't really have to do this--all this stuff is public domain. There's tons more as well, Victor Ostrovsky's book for one. But it seems that our conspiracy denialists haven't informed themselves about the ideas they are so suspiciously eager to dismiss. Anyway:

"Shortly before Maxwell's death, a former Mossad officer named Ari Ben-Menashe had approached a number of news organizations in Britain and the United States with the allegation that Maxwell and the Daily Mirror's foreign editor, Nick Davies, were both long time agents for the Israel intelligence service, Mossad. Ben-Menashe also claimed that in 1986 Maxwell had tipped off the Israeli Embassy in London that Mordechai Vanunu had given information about Israel's nuclear capability to the Sunday Times, then to the Daily Mirror, (Vanunu was subsequently lured from London, where the Sunday Times had him in hiding, to Rome, whence he was kidnapped and returned to Israel, convicted of treason, and imprisoned for 18 years.)

No news organization would publish Ben-Menashe's story at first, because of Maxwell's famed litigiousness (through lawyers Maislish & Co.), but eventually New Yorker journalist Seymour Hersh repeated some of the allegations during a press conference in London held to publicize The Samson Option, Hersh's book about Israel's nuclear weapons. On 21 October 1991, two Members of Parliament, Labour MP George Galloway and Conservative MP Rupert Allason (who writes books on the world of espionage under the pseudonym Nigel West) agreed to raise the issue in the House of Commons (with the protection of Parliamentary Privilege which allows MPs to ask questions in Parliament without risk of being sued for defamation), which in turn meant that British newspapers were able to report what had been said without fear of being sued for libel. Nevertheless, writs were swiftly issued by Mirror Group Solicitors on instruction from Maxwell, who called the claims "ludicrous, a total invention". Maxwell then sacked Nick Davies, and just days later, was found dead.[13]

The close proximity of his death to these allegations, for which Ben-Menashe had offered no evidence, served to heighten interest in Maxwell's relationship with Israel, and the Daily Mirror has since published claims, again without evidence, that he was assassinated by Mossad after he attempted to blackmail them.[14]

Maxwell was given a funeral in Israel better befitting a head of state than a publisher, as described by author Gordon Thomas:

On 10 November 1991, Maxwell’s funeral took place on the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem, across from the Temple Mount. It had all the trappings of a state occasion, attended by the country’s government and opposition leaders. No fewer than six serving and former heads of the Israeli intelligence community listened as Prime Minister Shamir eulogized: "He has done more for Israel than can today be said" (Gideon's Spies: The Secret History of the Mossad, St. Martin's Press, 1999).[15]

A hint of Maxwell's service to the Israeli state was provided by Loftus and Aarons, who described Maxwell's contacts with Czech anti-Stalinist Communist leaders in 1948 as crucial to the Czech decision to arm Israel in their War of Independence that year. Czech military assistance was both unique and crucial for the fledgling state as it battled for its existence [16]"

 

[frogwoman]

when I tried to explain my views about class etc to one of my firends he accused me of believing in a conspiracy theory - it can go too far the other way

 

[phildwyer]

You have ZERO hard evidence. Nothing. Not a scrap. Not a sausage.

Oh dear. You ought at least to Google before making such claims:

"The ties between Maxwell and the Mossad went back a long way. Elements within the Mossad had offered to finance Maxwell's first big business ventures, and in later years Maxwell received inside information on global matters from the Office. Maxwell was originally codenamed "the Little Czech," and the sobriquet stuck. Only a handful of people in the Israeli intelligence community knew who the Little Czech was, yet he provided an unending supply of slush money for the organization whenever it ran low."

http://www.the7thfire.com/new_world_order/zionism/mossad/mossad_murder_of_robert_maxwell.htm

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

Is it just me or did Gordon Brown just say the recession was "designed"?

 

[phildwyer]

when I tried to explain my views about class etc to one of my firends he accused me of believing in a conspiracy theory - it can go too far the other way

Indeed.

I well remember how Jazzz was endlessly derided by our resident conspiracy denialists when he pointed out that bankers control the economy.

Who are the real nutjobs here?

 

[xes]

Is it just me or did Gordon Brown just say the recession was "designed"?

lol, nice slip of the tounge Gordy (where did you see this, was it on the news or something?)

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

press conference on bbc news right now

 

[kyser_soze]

Indeed.

I well remember how Jazzz was endlessly derided by our resident conspiracy denialists when he pointed out that bankers control the economy.

Who are the real nutjobs here?

No one 'controls' the economy.

 

[phildwyer]

You have ZERO hard evidence. Nothing. Not a scrap. Not a sausage.

Oh dear.

I think the real question is: why were you so sure that there couldn't be any truth in what I said? Why were you so quick to deny any possibility of a conspiracy--obviously before looking into the matter for yourself?

"In 1991, British media tycoon Robert Maxwell died in mysterious circumstances off his yacht in the Canary Islands. The official cause of death was drowning, but this intriguing, if somewhat overreaching, investigative work argues that Maxwell died at the hands of the spy agency he worked for, Israel's Mossad."

http://www.amazon.com/Robert-Maxwell-Israels-Superspy-Murder/dp/0786710780

 

[claphamboy]

Sure I do. I've already mentioned the quote from Yitzhak Shamir at Maxwell's funeral. What do you think that meant?

And why, pray tell, was Maxwell given a state funeral anyway? There's certainly nothing in his overt activities that would justify it.

There's plenty more too: the Czech arms deal business has been fairly well documented I believe. Not that this proves he was a lifelong Mossad agent--anyone from his background in his position would likely have done the same in 1948. But there's tons of other suggestive evidence as well.

Would it stand up in a court of law? Of course not: that's why they call it a secret service. But in my view a rational person would have to give at least some credence to the idea. Only an irrational person would dismiss it out of hand. But then, there are plenty of irrational people around.

There’s also plenty of evidence to suggest that suicide* was the most likely reason for his death, yet you chose to totally ignore this and just believe he was murdered.

If anyone is being irrational it is you.

*ETA or poor health.

 

[fogbat]

when I tried to explain my views about class etc to one of my firends he accused me of believing in a conspiracy theory - it can go too far the other way

And that's a direct result of paranoids like Jazzz etc peddling their lunacy.

 

[Beanburger]

Who are the real nutjobs here?

The real nutjobs are those whose views are led by personal opinion rather than evidence - those for whom logic is a tool to support their position, rather than a form of reasoning that leads them to their position. Conspiraloons are more likely to fall into the former camp, since it generally takes an impassioned mind to forcefully advocate an atypical world-view.

Personally, my problem with conspiracy theories is that they generally utilise evidence selectively to support positions that run contrary to basic logic and reason. That doesn't mean that I blindly accept everything I'm told - it means that I question everything, whether that be the theories of conspiraloons or the propaganda of the state.

 

[phildwyer]

You have ZERO hard evidence. Nothing. Not a scrap. Not a sausage.

Oh dear.

It seems that the reviewers of yet another book on the subject, The Assassination of Robert Maxwell by Gordon Thomas and Martin Dillon, are all "conspiraloons" as well.

Again, since there quite clearly is an awful lot of evidence to support what I say, the interesting question is why you were unable to even entertain the notion. A psychological predisposition to conspiracy denialism perhaps?

“Relentlessly and graphically seeks to expose the dead tycoon’s descent into the world of crime in Eastern Europe, his intimate dealings with the Israeli Secret Service, Mossad, and his provision of computer know-how to some very questionable organisations… the case for murder is comprehensively made and places Maxwell at the centre of a very dark and dangerous world. There is a crusading thread through the book to bring Maxwell to account and hold him responsible”.
--Julian Cooper, The Times, UK


“Astonishing new evidence about his involvement in global crime and espionage. Mafia deals in Bulgaria. The plot to oust Gorbachev. America’s web of espionage scandal. The true, astonishing extend of Robert Maxwell’s web of corruption”.
--The Daily Mail


“Robert Maxwell was a Mossad spy. He asked them for £400 million. They refused and feared he would expose them. So three assassins killed him with a nerve agent”.
--The Daily Mirror


“This fascinating book, which takes the reader deep into the intricate and dangerous world of international espionage”.
--Elaine Margolis, San Francisco Chronicle


“This book traces the money trail of Maxwell better than any previous efforts”.
--Stephen Mc Mahon, Sunday Business Post


“A thought-provoking and compelling book”.
--David Pitt, Booklist, USA


“Explosive… fills in the gaps and provides the true explanation for his mysterious death”.
--Martin Shipton, Wales on Sunday


“A convincing case for the thoroughness and responsibility of the research. This is a big and ambitious book”.
--Michael Pakenham, Baltimore Sun


“An impressive array of documents, including FBI and autopsy reports”.
--Zeddy Lawrence, London Jewish News

http://www.martindillon.net/work4.htm

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Much as I hate to agree with Dwyer on anything, the Maxwell case is a curious one that at least warrants a closer look.

Suicide is still the most likely cause, but he certainly was mixed up in all manner of shady goings on, and compared to some of the CT shite out there murder isn't quite so far fetched.

 

[phildwyer]

There’s also plenty of evidence to suggest that suicide* was the most likely reason for his death, yet you chose to totally ignore this and just believe he was murdered.

I don't "just believe" anything.

I've read quite a lot about the subject, and that is the conclusion I've come to.

It's a perfectly rational conclusion, and is in fact the opinion of most people who've thought seriously about it.

Once again, we must ask why our conspiracy denialists were so quick to dismiss the idea out of hand. It doesn't exactly speak well of their views on other conspiracies either.

 

[kyser_soze]

I have to say I'm of an open mind re: Maxwell. When I first read about it, having been a Maxwell watcher from the Eye for some time, and given that it was when the pensions scandal broke, there's evidence that it could have been suicide (altho given his sociopathic personality I can't see Maxwell being so guilty over taking what he saw as 'his' money), but he was also over his head in dodgy shit with a variety of people, not just Mossad.

Not enough evidence for me to say 'Yes, he was definitely moidered', but I'd tend to lean in that direction.

Again tho, the difference is evidential - there's a paper trail to support ideas about Maxwell's assasination. There's no credible evidence in suport of, and lots against, Diana being assasinated rather than the victim of an accident that she could have survived by following basic safety procedures.

 

[frogwoman]

I think he was murdered as well and for fucks sake this is exactly what I mean, because of bonkers shit that the likes of Icke and Alex Jones put out perfectly plausible theories with evidence in support of them get tarred with the same brush, and it gets used as a smear for ALL things that are slightly opposed to the government's view

 

[phildwyer]

Much as I hate to agree with Dwyer on anything, the Maxwell case is a curious one that at least warrants a closer look.

Hahahahaha. Loonspud, nutbobbin, bonkersman.

I suppose Israel maintains a network of deep cover secret agents in powerful positions throughout the world, does it? I suppose this explains how such a small country has survived the relentless attacks by its numerous opponents for the last 60 years does it?

Hahahahahaha. Go and hang out with David Icke, you're both as mad as each other.

 

[Beanburger]

I think he was murdered as well and for fucks sake this is exactly what I mean, because of bonkers shit that the likes of Icke and Alex Jones put out perfectly plausible theories with evidence in support of them get tarred with the same brush, and it gets used as a smear for ALL things that are slightly opposed to the government's view

Absolutely. Which leads me to suspect that conspiraloons are actually agents of the state, conducting false-flag operations to undermine the credibility of real conspiracy theories.

 

[editor]

Oh dear.

It seems that the reviewers of yet another book on the subject, The Assassination of Robert Maxwell by Gordon Thomas and Martin Dillon, are all "conspiraloons" as well.

Don't try and put words in my mouth to cover up your own idiotic nonsense on this thread, please.

I don't doubt that there is a question mark over his death, but to dismiss anyone who isn't absolutely convinced of a conspiracy as suffering from a mental condition which leaves them "psychologically predisposed to irrational skepticism," is ridiculous.

I'm going to keep repeating those stupid words until perhaps you realise just how moronic your statement is.

In the absence of any evidence, it's important to keep an open mind, but to label anyone who doesn't agree with your particular spin on events as being mentally unwell is insulting, and a good reminder of how you try to bully and ridicule anyone who doesn't fall in line with your opinions.

You've made a right arse of yourself on this thread, no matter how much you bluster away or try to insult other posters, or try and slur them with mental illness. It's quite disgraceful conduct, really.

 

[frogwoman]

Absolutely. Which leads me to suspect that conspiraloons are actually agents of the state, conducting false-flag operations to undermine the credibility of real conspiracy theories.

Joking aside that really ins't far from the truth, a lot of these people are funded by far right christian republicans like Pat Robertson or "end times" nutters with plenty of cash and political influence to spare