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'Conspiraloons' in the ascendancy?

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says the man who KNOWS that Diana's death was an accident

There's no evidence presented that makes me think it wasn't an accident. Lies about money being deposited into staff's account, lies, about security cameras turned the wrong way, and the simple fact that if they were trying to kill her, they could have been thwarted by her wearing a seatbelt.

It's an idiotic conspiracy. If there was any evidence for a murder it would have come out in either of the inquests. In fact your precious Mansfield, even conceded that the royal family tried to kill her that night in Paris.
 
Yep, but it's easier to believe in conspiracies than to acknowledge that you might have been manipulated quite so easily.

The problem as well is that someone like trev would mis-read (wilfully or otherwise) Chomsky's work to fit his conspiracy world-view (which lets face it is quite easy - same goes for Marxism)
 
Well considering the people in the best position to know if Iraq had any WMDs were the UN Inspectors, who couldn’t confirm that all had been destroyed gave weight to what I described earlier as ‘perfectly reasonable to assume’ they still had some.
ah, ok I guess there's a bit of a difference between believing they had anything like enough weaponised or weaponisable WMD to pose any sort of a threat as the US & UK governments were saying at the time to justify the march to war, vs believing that Iraq may have had the odd little bit of something left somewhere vs Iraq having absolutely nothing left to be found at all.

Reading the weapons inspectors reports again, there was absolutely nothing in them to back up the US, UK position, but yes, they do tend to support the middle option to some extent. At the same time though, if you looked at those reports from the perspective of the people writing them, it'd be very unlikely that you'd ever get a report that categorically stated that a country definately didn't have any wmd programme, especially when they were only part way into their work schedule, as they couldn't provide categorical proof of a negative.

Scott Ritters assessment at the time was quite instructive on this IMO

There’s no doubt Iraq hasn’t fully complied with its disarmament obligations as set forth by the Security Council in its resolution. But on the other hand, since 1998 Iraq has been fundamentally disarmed: 90-95% of Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction capacity has been verifiably eliminated... We have to remember that this missing 5-10% doesn’t necessarily constitute a threat... It constitutes bits and pieces of a weapons program which in its totality doesn’t amount to much, but which is still prohibited... We can’t give Iraq a clean bill of health, therefore we can’t close the book on their weapons of mass destruction. But simultaneously, we can’t reasonably talk about Iraqi non-compliance as representing a de-facto retention of a prohibited capacity worthy of war. (page 28)
We eliminated the nuclear program, and for Iraq to have reconstituted it would require undertaking activities that would have been eminently detectable by intelligence services. (page 32)
If Iraq were producing [chemical] weapons today, we’d have proof, pure and simple. (page 37)
[A]s of December 1998 we had no evidence Iraq had retained biological weapons, nor that they were working on any. In fact, we had a lot of evidence to suggest Iraq was in compliance. (page

What I do not accept is that the media was involved in the conspiracy – yes they were briefed, yes they were lied too, but they certainly weren’t part of the conspiracy as is evidence from the amount of coverage that was questioning of the governments and their evidence.
conspiracy is probably too strong a word, but IMO there were significant sectors of the media who were actively complicit in the deception of the british public via the media that led to war.

Essentially in he UK we had the Sun, Times, Telegraph, Mail, Star and Express with a combined readership of around something like 19 million with an editorial policy of actively supporting the march to war lined up against the Mirror, Guardian and Independent with a readership of around 9 million actively opposing the war. In terms of setting editorial policy, I don't think it's a coincidence that the antiwar papers are all owned by some sort of relatively independent trust or wide shareholding, whereas the pro war papers were wholly or majority owned by tycoons including mordoch, conrad black, Lord Rothmere, Richard Desmond etc.

Now, I'm not saying that all these media tycoons would have been sat down in a big meeting and given every single detail of the plan and their role within it, as would be the case if they were active conspirators. That would have been pretty stupid and entirely unecessary. These are establishment players, who can pretty much be relied upon to ensure their media outlets tow the party line anyway, but in this case I'd expect that words would have been had both here and in the US to make sure they were fully on message, as the media outlets they controlled would have been seen as being absolutely vital in terms of tipping the balance of public and parliamentary opinion in favour of a war based on such a flimsy premise.


But, it’s an interesting idea that they couldn’t trust using a small team of highly trained and dedicated military personnel for such a conspiracy operation for fear of being found out, yet some seem to think they could trust hundreds, if not thousands, of media people to be in on the conspiracy. :hmm:
IMO rumsfeld and Cheney are just too experienced to go for plans with such obvious potential for blow back. This is particularly the case when they had a CIA that was openly hostile to them and their ideas, and felt that it had been effectively left out to dry by them over the 911 intelligence failings that were largely Rumsfeld and Cheney's fault in the first place (for ignoring the CIA's warnings that AQ posed the biggest threat to the US interests). If you've made enemies of the CIA, then you'd be incredibly naive to start mounting black ops to plant WMD's in Iraq, and these 2 didn't get where they were then by being incredibly naive.

Basically I think that they partly presumed that Saddam would have kept something tucked away in reserve somewhere*, but also knew that essentially once anyone was in a position to know for sure that WMD's weren't going to be found, it'd be way too late as the war would already have been fought, and the billions upon billions of dollars of prize money contracts would have already been issued to the corporate interests they represented, the dice for any new oil contracts with Iraq would be loaded heavily in their favour (or so they thought), and they'd have re-established the US dominance in the region that had been threatened when Saddam went rogue at the end of the 80's. They basically knew that if and when Bush was forced to let them go, they'd be able to seemlessly slip back into power in the corporate world in the knowledge that they'd managed to get the US embroiled in 2 wars that'd easily keep the contracts flowing for most of the rest of their lives one way or another.


*a serious misreading of Saddam's likely reaction to his early 90's situation, and the power of a feared dictator to ensure that slightly irrational decisions, such as destroying all WMD in a way that can't easily be verified, will be enacted rapidly by everyone without a severe death wish lest they be the ones to get caught out by an inspection... as history shows.
 
I see :p before my time I'm afraid. Yet I feel that it's all too likely that Icke did indeed get his inspiration from battlestar galactica

No again see you're wrong
the baddie aliens were actually lizards in disguise
Thats were Icke got his inspiration.


Blagsta, the new version aired in the US last night.
 
fre spirit - you forgot to add that Baby Bush wanted to please Daddy and do the job he wasn't allowed to and managed to convince himself that he lost to Slick Willy in 92 over, not the whole 'No New Taxes' thing...
 
fre spirit - you forgot to add that Baby Bush wanted to please Daddy and do the job he wasn't allowed to and managed to convince himself that he lost to Slick Willy in 92 over, not the whole 'No New Taxes' thing...
what bush wanted to do was largely irrelevant to what would actually happen IMO.

it's entirely plausible that that was the extent of his rationale for wanting to target Iraq, cheney, rumsfeld, wolfowitz and their cohorts are an entirely different matter. They had bigger fish to fry as players in histories great games.
 
Who do you think does decide who goes to war, Trev?
You and me? Not in this so-called democracy we live in. It is and always has been the power-mongers who decide. The fact that you believe that Ronson has exposed something new and previously un-thought of just shows that you're a bit naive.

Because Jon-boy didn't say anything that a person doing a politics A-level couldn't have worked out with access to the right books and the internet.

Except that it isn't. A unitary currency and some political union doesn't make a "European superstate", which would need, at the very least, full federation of all member-states.

Although not by anyone credible, you may have noticed.
Blair's name was mentioned as a "spoiler", so that other candidates would look like a safe bet compared to phoney tony.

Mandelson is also a member of the British-American Project for the Successor Generation and attends their meetings. he's a power-monger who does his business with other power-mongers. I'd be more surprised if our government didn't have connections like this.
Trev, Jon Ronson wrote a pot-boiler based mostly on other people's work

i agree with most of that, but Ronson's book WAS his own work. It was he who went to the remote woodland to watch the procession of tossers go to the bildeberg meeting and the book actually starts investigating loons and disbelieving them until he investigates further
 
There's no evidence presented that makes me think it wasn't an accident. Lies about money being deposited into staff's account, lies, about security cameras turned the wrong way, and the simple fact that if they were trying to kill her, they could have been thwarted by her wearing a seatbelt.

It's an idiotic conspiracy. If there was any evidence for a murder it would have come out in either of the inquests. In fact your precious Mansfield, even conceded that the royal family tried to kill her that night in Paris.

the last bit doesn't make sense , you are backing up (sort of) MY argument (although i don't think it was actually the royals that killed her)
 
the last bit doesn't make sense , you are backing up (sort of) MY argument (although i don't think it was actually the royals that killed her)



Should have been

Mansfield, even conceded that the royal family Didn't try to kill her that night in Paris.

In the light of the evidence, Mr Mansfield QC has, quite properly, accepted that there is no direct evidence that the Duke played any part in the deaths and has accepted that there is no direct evidence of any involvement of the SIS. Mr Mansfield now submits that the jury should consider an alternative scenario, which he terms the ‘troublesome priest thesis’: a plan by unknown individuals (perhaps rogue SIS operatives) to stage the crash in order to serve the perceived interests or wishes of the Royal Family or ‘the Establishment’, as he and Mr Al Fayed term it. He also now submits that the aim of the plot may have been to scare the Princess. That submission may rest in part on a realistic acceptance that there could have been no certainty that the Princess and Mr Al Fayed would die or be seriously harmed. The lethal forces that resulted in the deaths of Diana, Dodi and Henri Paul resulted from the high speed of the Mercedes (about 65 mph at the moment of the collision) and the fact that it impacted with the corner of a pillar. Had the Mercedes hit the side of the pillar or gone out of control and hit the wall on the other side of its carriageway, it would probably have been deflected and the outcome may well have been different. Additionally, the occupants were not wearing seatbelts. The expert evidence was that wearing a seatbelt would either have prevented or at the very least diminished the prospect of a fatal injury.

From the Inquest


It has taken more than 90 days, 270 witnesses and a bill of £10 million to slay the obsessive conspiracy theories of one man. And in the end yesterday, a jury discarded the soft option of accidental death and placed much of the blame for the deaths of Diana, Princess of Wales, and Dodi Fayed on the shoulders of one of Mohamed Al Fayed’s own employees.

The Princess and Dodi were unlawfully killed by a combination of their drunk driver, Henri Paul, and the paparazzi who were chasing their car, the jury at their inquests decided.

It was a disastrous outcome for the owner of Harrods, whose allegations of a murder plot masterminded by the Duke of Edinburgh were rejected decisively by the coroner for complete lack of evidence.It was a damning indictment, too, of the pursuing photographers who must accept an equal share of the blame. Even the dead do not escape censure. The couple might have been alive today, the jury decided unanimously, had they been wearing their seatbelts.

again
 
how would you get evidence of collusion between racist Phil and the security services? Mansfield, like anyone else who isn't an establishment robot, thinks that there was foul play. You never seem to mention the 2 witnesses that saw a bright light, and the car sandwiched between a motorbike and another car. You only highlight the bits the establishment would want you to.

But this is going round in circles and will continue to do so forever
 
how would you get evidence of collusion between racist Phil and the security services? Mansfield, like anyone else who isn't an establishment robot, thinks that there was foul play.

Except for the fact that he doesn't

Mr Mansfield QC has, quite properly, accepted that there is no direct evidence that the Duke played any part in the deaths and has accepted that there is no direct evidence of any involvement of the SIS. M

You never seem to mention the 2 witnesses that saw a bright light,

Because Cameras. like the ones, y'know, paparazzi have, occasionally have these things, called "flashes"

and the car sandwiched between a motorbike and another car. You only highlight the bits the establishment would want you to.

Because anyone who witnesses a crime or a crash will tell you're you're likely to get conflicting accounts.

What about those accounts that match the physical evidence?

But this is going round in circles and will continue to do so forever

How about I just start calling you Al Fayed' little bitch boy?
 
You never seem to mention the 2 witnesses that saw a bright light

Already dealt with, but ignored by you together with the 17 witnesses that didn't see the 'bright light'. :facepalm:

the car sandwiched between a motorbike and another car.

The car was speeding, so any vehicle ahead in its lane would have impeded it and have appeared to be blocking it and the car was being followed by the paparazzi on motorbikes. :facepalm:
 
'no direct evidence' doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Are you saying that those who murdered Stephen Lawrence WEREN'T the ones interviewed about it because the coppers left their enquiries until after the evidence had been disposed of?
 
Already dealt with, but ignored by you together with the 17 witnesses that didn't see the 'bright light'. :facepalm:





The car was speeding, so any vehicle ahead in its lane would have impeded it and have appeared to be blocking it and the car was being followed by the paparazzi on motorbikes. :facepalm:


the only 2 witnesses in the tunnel when it happened or paparazzi 100's of yards back, who to believe?
 
'no direct evidence' doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Direct or indirect, theres no evidence either the driver or bodyguard was paid, or evidence that SIS or MI5/6 were active in paris that day.

In the words of Lionel Hutz "I"ve got conjecture and speculation, those are sorta like proof".

Are you saying that those who murdered Stephen Lawrence WEREN'T the ones interviewed about it because the coppers left their enquiries until after the evidence had been disposed of?

We'll just pencil in the law into the ever growing list of shit you know fuck all about.
 
the only 2 witnesses in the tunnel when it happened or paparazzi 100's of yards back, who to believe?

Jacques Morrell? Who was flown over to the UK and interviewed for days. And who surprise surprise published a book filled with Diana Conspiracy theories, released before the 2nd inquest published it's findings.


Oh he seems like a fan fucking tastic witness.
 
the only 2 witnesses in the tunnel when it happened or paparazzi 100's of yards back, who to believe?

The type of strobe light alleged by Tomlinson to have been used was so powerful that a flash from it would have been bright enough to illuminate a very wide area and been seen by dozens of witnesses. :facepalm:
 
The type of strobe light alleged by Tomlinson to have been used was so powerful that a flash from it would have been bright enough to illuminate a very wide area and been seen by dozens of witnesses. :facepalm:


or at least bright enough to dazzle a driver , causing him to crash
 
Jacques Morrell? Who was flown over to the UK and interviewed for days. And who surprise surprise published a book filled with Diana Conspiracy theories, released before the 2nd inquest published it's findings.


Oh he seems like a fan fucking tastic witness.


bad luck for the establishment eh? One of the only two witnesses that could actually see the crash happens to be a 'conspiraloon' !!! By that odds does that mean half of France are?
 
Direct or indirect, theres no evidence either the driver or bodyguard was paid, or evidence that SIS or MI5/6 were active in paris that day.

In the words of Lionel Hutz "I"ve got conjecture and speculation, those are sorta like proof".



We'll just pencil in the law into the ever growing list of shit you know fuck all about.


ok then smartarse, tell us what really happened with the case. Maybe you could name the murderers if they weren't the ones accused? Seeing as you know the Diana crash was an accident, i'm sure you can tell us who killed Lawrence?
 
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