Conspiraloon 9/11- 7/7 Truther outed as Holocaust denier

[Idris2002]

About this one:

As surprising as it may sound, the only intentional mass extermination program in the concentration camps of WW2 was targeted at Germans. From April, 1945 five million Germans were rounded up after surrendering, and deliberately starved until well over one million had died - Source: http:// codohDOTcom/newrevoices/nrillusion.html

I first came across this in the early 90s, when an apparent anomaly in the numbers of German war dead was raised by reputable historians. It appeared - on the face of the figures - that there had been an unusually high rate of excess deaths amongst German POWs in the immediate aftermath of 1945 (this was in the wider context of debate over the refugee flows and mass expulsions of Germans from the east in the last days of the war and under the new management installed by Stalin). That at least was suggested by the sudden drop in the numbers held.

The explanation of the anomaly appeared in the Times Literary Supplement (I can picture reading it now in Castlebar library): by the end of the war the Nazis had ordered a Volkssturm, a 'people's storm' led by a ragtag Dad's Army. A lot of these were numbered amongst the POWs in allied hands at war's end, and many of them were doddery old men, or pimply face youths. These were released as they were considered to be harmless - and this release is what accounted for the sudden drop in the number of POWs held by the allies.

There was no suggestion of a deliberate policy of starvation targetting German POWs.

E2A: Oh, and this was specifically in relation to the book Other Losses, mentioned by treelover further up the thread.

 

[Y_I_Otter]

About this one:E2A: Oh, and this was specifically in relation to the book Other Losses, mentioned by treelover further up the thread.

I think Bacque's been pretty thoroughly demolished. I found Other Losses remaindered for $0.99 CDN not three years after it was published. When the book first came out he was a bit of a cause celebre on the talk circuit, then he dropped out of sight.

 

[Y_I_Otter]

... although i think that most people are basically decent

If I didn't think that I'd have hurled myself off a bridge decades ago.

 

[Idris2002]

If I didn't think that I'd have hurled myself off a bridge decades ago.

\

'If there was hope, it lay in the proles. You had to cling to that'.

 

[fela fan]

All worthy questions to ask, but apparently conspiraloonery around these parts.....



Yes, there are plenty of racists and paranoids who identify with the '9/11 truth movement. There are also a lot of non-racist and well balanced people who also do so.

But, as i'm sure you know, words like 'conspiraloonery' have functions higher than mere meanings that a word can conjure up. They have the function of shutting down debate, of rubbishing those pesky characters who are causing angst amongst those practising self-deception. 'Liberal' is just such a word in the USA.

And 'conspiraloonery' makes no distinction as you did mate. It is a wide net that will view racists and paranoids as the same as non-racists and non-paranoids. It's not actually concerned with meaning, merely to shut down debate of subjects that cause too much discomfort for whatever reason.

I will necessarily have to add a rider that i have no truck with the man who is the subject of this thread. I know nothing about him, nor want to, nor care.

 

[Idris2002]

>They have the function of shutting down debate

You can't have a debate with a holocaust denier, nor with someone so convinced in advance that 9/11 was an inside job that they will cherry-pick whatever 'evidence' supports that view and wilfully ignore anything that undermines it.

 

[Frampton]

I myself am acutely sceptical of all conspiracy theories. Except of course, my belief that the Earth is hollow and no more than a refuelling stage for intergalactic transport.

But drawing a line around free speech? Nah. Speech with lines around it is no longer free speech. As for grassing people up and seeking their dismissal.... we're straight back to the fear and terrors of a Marxist or Fascist state.

People are free to spout whatever gratuitous nonsense they want. If it's vicious then they must expect repercussions. I'm not into banning people. It's what we do when they are up on their soapbox that matters.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Still awaiting Jazzzs thoughts on this matter with great interest

 

[tarannau]

What's the betting that his selective myopia will allow him to miss this thread then?

Better than Sticking up for the goon I suppose. How does Jazzz continually get duped by these cunts?

 

[cesare]

And 'conspiraloonery' makes no distinction as you did mate. It is a wide net that will view racists and paranoids as the same as non-racists and non-paranoids. It's not actually concerned with meaning, merely to shut down debate of subjects that cause too much discomfort for whatever reason.

Well you might not like it fela, but as Miguel de Cervantes remarked, "tell me what company you keep, and I'll tell you what you are." The issues of racism and sexism are clearly linked to holocaust deniers and/or far right/facism and those that associate themselves with them on common ground, such as certain conspiracy theories, may find themselves associated with racism and sexism as well - even if it's just on a gradual influence basis. Today's far right aren't all overt, there's a needle like insidiousness that isn't always obvious.

I will necessarily have to add a rider that i have no truck with the man who is the subject of this thread. I know nothing about him, nor want to, nor care.

It's a pity you don't care, but I'm glad you want no truck with him.

 

[jæd]

There's nothing wrong with doubting the official version of events. It just when you start making conspiracy theories to justify it. People screw things up sometimes. They get things wrong. Doesn't mean its an organised conspiracy though. Just people being people.

Its a pity there's such a "blame" culture so people could come clean and admit perhaps they did spot something dodgy going on, but either forgot about, or where told by others "not to exaggerate..." so they didn't report it...

 

[treelover]

Sources for that?, there was even a documentary on the issues, with former German POW's of the US Forces stating how they had been left to starve, I am aware Stephen Ambrose(Band of Brothers) challenged him and he has revised his figures, but the intent still stands. In fact, at first Ambrose backed him up


'I have now read Other Losses and wish I had not. I have had nightmares every night since I started reading... You have a sensational if appalling story and it can no longer be suppressed, and I suppose (in truth I know) it must be published... I must withdraw my offer to write a Foreword; I just can't do it to Ike. I quarrel with many of your interpretations, [but] I am not arguing with the basic truth of your discovery.... you have the goods on these guys, you have the quotes from those who were present and saw with their own eyes, you have the broad outline of a truth so terrible that I really can't bear it.... You really have made a major historical discovery, the full impact of which neither you nor I nor anyone can fully imagine.... I have written at length about your script to Alice Mayhew, my editor at Simon and Schuster.'


Anyway, why should we not believe the Allies were not capable of such things, look at twenty years on and the horrors of Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia....


the debate here

http://hnn.us/articles/1266.html

Idris said

There was no suggestion of a deliberate policy of starvation targetting German POWs.

E2A: Oh, and this was specifically in relation to the book Other Losses, mentioned by treelover further up the thread.

 

[Badger Kitten]

as an aside, I saw this album the other day and thought of this thread, especially this post

Honestly, Jazz seems like a decent bloke, why does he get suckered into this nonsense? How could you miss that your friend was a holocaust denier?

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Honestly, Jazz seems like a decent bloke, why does he get suckered into this nonsense? How could you miss that your friend was a holocaust denier?

It's all the more amazing/daft/tragic considering that Jazzz is Jewish...

 

[cesare]

I don't suppose that Pat Richardson feels that the BNP are anti-semitic either though.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I don't suppose that Pat Richardson feels that the BNP are anti-semitic either though.

Oh yes he's the Jewish BNP candidate in Epping isn't he. Thing is I KNOW that there are antisemites amongst the BNP supporters I heard them gobbing off about it often enough when I lived in East London, but what the party is saying in public is totally different. Theres more milage in attacking Muslims not Jews.

 

[Badger Kitten]

Tony Gosling, who is another maninstay of the 9/11 movemnt writes on his home page

Wouldn't it be satisfying if the energy being put in to help sort out our misdirected world could turn things around? It would be comforting to think so but realistically the banks, corporate media and other transnational corporations, the merger maniacal 'dark side', are extending their monopolistic control.

The modern transnational corporation is an immortal, soulless collusion of greed that reduces everything it touches to a dollar value. In law a corporation is a person, able to own property and resources just as a person can only, it seems, not responsible for the deaths it causes. The present 'War on Terror' is a fraudulent attempt to create a new Moslem enemy, much like the attack on the Jew's in the 1930's. Nato and many Western Military masters are following the same tactics as Hitler's Nazis.

Yet he comments on a vicar whose daughter was killed on 7/7 (and who left the ministry because she could not forgive Sidique Khan, the bomber who killed her child) calling it an 'idiotic pseudo Christian vicar story (on the nineeleven.co.uk boards)

Idiotic because there is still no hard evidence that Kahn carried out this attack - mind you I can understand her confusion and distress being the victim of a high level UK/US/Israeli military Psycological Operation.
One more reason to hold a proper enquiry.

I wonder how these people, who clearly think of themselves as being on the side of the angels and truth, can be so incredibly blind to what they are doing and who they are associating with?

Because unfortunately, it's not just a few fruitloops.

It has a pernicious effect...

 

[Aldebaran]

Odd, isn't it, that such a massive hoax has escaped the notice of tens of thousands of bona fide historians and yet is revealed to a gaggle of professional antisemites.

The main problem is in my view that history courses tend to be seen as "waste of time" by many schoolchildren and in many systems they are not even an obligatory part of the school curriculum.

salaam.

 

[cesare]

Oh yes he's the Jewish BNP candidate in Epping isn't he. Thing is I KNOW that there are antisemites amongst the BNP supporters I heard them gobbing off about it often enough when I lived in East London, but what the party is saying in public is totally different. Theres more milage in attacking Muslims not Jews.

Pat Richardson's a 'she'. But yes, I don't know how long ago this quote from NG was: “I am well aware that the orthodox opinion is that six million Jews were gassed and cremated or turned into lampshades. Orthodox opinion also once held that the earth is flat…I have reached the conclusion that the ‘extermination’ tale is a mixture of Allied wartime propaganda, extremely profitable lie, and latter day witch-hysteria.” but it certainly seems that riding the Islamophobic tide trumps anti-semiticism on a pragmatic basis atm.

 

[butchersapron]

Tony Gosling <snip>

I wonder if Mr Gosling, when he's not too busy sending fake emails pretending to be from various groups, still believes that the Nazis were a jewish plot?

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Pat Richardson's a 'she'. But yes, I don't know how long ago this quote from NG was: “I am well aware that the orthodox opinion is that six million Jews were gassed and cremated or turned into lampshades. Orthodox opinion also once held that the earth is flat…I have reached the conclusion that the ‘extermination’ tale is a mixture of Allied wartime propaganda, extremely profitable lie, and latter day witch-hysteria.” but it certainly seems that riding the Islamophobic tide trumps anti-semiticism on a pragmatic basis atm.

My bad. Got mixed up there sorry.

Richardson = tosser

 

[Badger Kitten]

I wonder if Mr Gosling, when he's not too busy sending fake emails pretending to be from various groups, still believes that the Nazis were a jewish plot?

you're serious? I thought he, at least, did accept the Holocaust happened and that Jews were targeted by the Nazis? His post on his home page seems to say this. ( tragic loon home page is www. bilderberg.org/tonyhom.htm

The present 'War on Terror' is a fraudulent attempt to create a new Moslem enemy, much like the attack on the Jew's in the 1930's. Nato and many Western Military masters are following the same tactics as Hitler's Nazis

edited: can't even use apostrophes properly

 

[Badger Kitten]

Oh look, here we go, about why Tony Gosling has a problem with Jews.

My spiritual beliefs

I have looked at many spiritual beliefs but nothing has spoken to me me on as high a level as Jesus' teachings and actions. The sermon on the mount (Matthew 5-7) shows that no-one has ever understood the importance of love, nor exactly what it means, more than the Messiah long-promised by God.

Many problems have been caused by some of the Jewish people's refusal to acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah. Many Jews, for example, live in old Testament Torah Times - believeing they are still 'God's chosen people'. It seems clear to me that God cut off the Jewish heirarchy from his favour after they pleaded successfully for the unjust death of his only son. The Israeli state's brutal and racist treatment of the Palestinian people makes it clear to me that Israel is no longer interested in the will of God.

At least 52 different aspects of Christ's coming were prophesied in the Old Testament (see pp. xxvi-xxix, Jewish New Testament ISBN 965 359 006 5, Jewish New Testament Pubs. Inc. Maryland N.J. U.S.A.). Yet still He was not recognised as God's 'anointed one' or 'Messiah' by many Jews.

With a bit of Bible study we can be sure not to be deceived as the prophecies of the End Times unfold and Christ returns ultimately in glory for all the world to see.
Hey Tony, did the Tribulation begin on September 11th 2001? Will it begin tomorrow or in two thousand years time.........?
World Government is moving closer all the time - and what's the chance that it will serve the people? Zero! And hardly anybody tells the public or dares to talk about how totalitarian the European Union is. We could be in for some serious skullduggery in coming years/months. A political/financial crisis, combined with spiritual disinformation could push us into a Fourth Reich, New World Order, with an official world religion that claims to represent ALL religions. This is what Prince Charles is advocating NOW. Powerful people will certainly be preparing their version of a spiritual 'panacea' to fill the spiritual gap THEY have created.

Total fruitbat

 

[butchersapron]

you're serious? I thought he, at least, did accept the Holocaust happened and that Jews were targeted by the Nazis? His post on his home page seems to say this. ( tragic loon home page is www. bilderberg.org/tonyhom.htm


edited: can't even use apostrophes properly

He certainly used to go along with the standard loon clap-trap that the Nazis were a Rothschild front (as seemingly is everything ever). He was also the main pimp behind Shayler, who has now become pretty openly anti-semitic, basing his ideas on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion...this whole scene incubates this sordid stuff.

 

[Aldebaran]

To be completely fair, I also have "doubts" about 9/11. I'm sure that the people who crashed into the towers WERE islamic terrorists.

Well no, they were not because there is no such a thing like "Islamic" terrorist.
They declared themselves to be Muslim and clearly thought they were Muslim and had to be utterly convinced that what they were doing was in line with Islam. While everyone a bit informed on Islam knows that can't be, it is also clear that the Western masses need to be indoctrinated by constantly linking of the word Islam with the word terrorist to keep "the new enemy" doctrine of fear alive.

The issue for me is how much knowledge the security services, or elements within them, had prior to the attacks, and whether they "allowed" the attacks to happen purely due to incompetence, or whether they knew but chose to say nothing for other motives.

The real issue is not how much was known. The issue is that they didn't want to know what was given to them on a golden plate for years in a row, because of patronizing Western arrogance (how could the intelligence services of the brownies be competent?)

Excuse me that I maybe sound a bit sharp, but I have more than enough of it to read hate inciting nonsense like 'Islamic terrorists" etc..

salaam.

 

[Badger Kitten]

Postal Intercept
Have you ever noticed that personal post that is not a bank statement or junk mail doesn't appear to arrive on a Monday morning? Have you ever wondered why? Have you ever realised the spooks that open our mail don't work at the weekend? If so, you, like me, may have been a victim of postal interception.
As if that's not bad enough did you know that Deutche Bank, the German national bank, is using its unlimited cash resources to buy up all the postal systems in Europe, they also have their heavy artillery aimed at Britain's privatised Royal Mail?

In what appears to be a crude attempt at intimidation my post has been selectively intercepted/delayed/opened (at least up to September 2001) and may even be stolen in transit. <snip>

I am wrestling with whether he is mentally ill or not. If he ( or Kollerstrom) is seriously mentally ill then I suppose I should not be using words like fruitbat about them, and should try to feel pity for them.

But after seeing the way they carry on - especially Kollerstrom's offensive and inappropriate behaviour towards real people, causing real offence - live, not just words on the internet - it's very hard not to be angry and upset about it.

 

[Badger Kitten]

He certainly used to go along with the standard loon clap-trap that the Nazis were a Rothschild front (as seemingly is everything ever). He was also the main pimp behind Shayler, who has now become pretty openly anti-semitic, basing his ideas on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion...this whole scene incubates this sordid stuff.

To be fair to him, on his current home page he does not seem to be denying Nazi murder of Jews. He wrotes of Niemoller's famous 'First they came...' poem

1. It is quite worrying and depressing to see corruptions of the poem, purporting to be Niemoeller's original, beginning 'First they came for the Jews...' the rounding up of Jews happened towards the end of World War II and was, of course, Hitler's 'Final Solution' not 'First' at all.
2. What that famous and moving quotation does not mention is that before they came for the Communists, they came for the homeless, the mentally disabled, the unemployed, and all those categorized as "asocial." (from McSpotlight site: http://194.109.5.47/media/press/bioticbb_24feb99.html )
3. Once upon a time in Germany the Nazis rounded up citizens and murdered them. Other German citizens were so frightened by the Nazis they pretended not to see what was happening to their neighbors. Is the press in your country so frightened by the Elite your journalists and photo-journalists have become a group of "Not-Sees."? Or, are your journalists and photo-journalists "Not-Sees" because they can make more money being dishonest then they can from being honest?

Which makes it all the more bizarre that he is anything to with astro3 and does not complain at blatant holocaust denial being posted on the 9/11 loonsite

EDIT: surprise, surprise, the 9/11 holocaust denial thread has been removed from the 9/11 site after two days of people being directed to it by bloggers and on u75.

Well, that's something I suppose.

 

[frogwoman]

Well no, they were not because there is no such a thing like "Islamic" terrorist.
They declared themselves to be Muslim and clearly thought they were Muslim and had to be utterly convinced that what they were doing was in line with Islam. While everyone a bit informed on Islam knows that can't be, it is also clear that the Western masses need to be indoctrinated by constantly linking of the word Islam with the word terrorist to keep "the new enemy" doctrine of fear alive.

Agree with that and sorry. sorry about using that phrase, of course i know that the terrorists' beleifs don't agree with what most muslims and Islamic scholarly opinion has to say about it

 

[cesare]

Yeah but, yeah but, BK - compare Gosling's initial seeming stance to this of NG:

One asks me how my demonisation of Muslims differs from Hitler’s demonisation of the Jews? The answer is simple: The Nazi critique was largely based on a hoax – The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion. It was this work of fiction, combined with the fact that the Bolsheviks carrying out mass murder on an unprecedented scale all over Eastern Europe included a disproportionate number of radicalised secular Jews (itself a reaction to Czarist anti-Semitism), that set the scene for the tragedy of European Jewry.

but scratch the surface, and there's underlying clearer anti-semitism if you compare this ^ with the NG quote in my last post.

From the same American tour last November, NG goes on to say:

I begin my speech to howls of protest and a barrage of hostile questions every couple of sentences. The mob is the all-too-familiar mixture of truly hideous lesbians, semi-dwarves of indeterminate sex, full-sized freaks, chip-on-shoulder anti-white racist minorities, angry Muslims, a half-handy looking lad who acts really hard and a couple of strikingly attractive blondes – typical of the people descended from the Swedish farmers who did so much to settle this part of the USA.

Charming.

Quotes from his personal blog btw.

 

[Lock&Light]

Agree with that and sorry. sorry about using that phrase, of course i know that the terrorists' beleifs don't agree with what most muslims and Islamic scholarly opinion has to say about it

Most of the Irish didn't agree with the practices of the IRA, yet it's still perfectly acceptable to describe those who did actively support them as "Irish Terrorists'.