Charlottesville aftermath discussion thread...

[Jonti]

“When someone says they want to kill you, believe them.”

 

[butchersapron]

People have decided they will not be marched off to camps again and they won't allow the regimes that would do that to come to power. That's the common sense - simple as that and no way around it. Hertford's counter plan of being nice and reasonable is as powerless to stop that common sense as it was too stop the fascists taking power in Italy and then Germany.

 

[J Ed]

The very short period of liberals stopping punching left and attacking Trump for doing so is decidedly over.

‘The Daily Show’s’ Trevor Noah Blasts Antifa, Brands Them ‘Vegan ISIS’

Occasionally, The Daily Show will surprise its (mostly left-wing) viewers by echoing the overheated rhetoric emanating from the right-wing echo chamber.

This week, for example, the late-night comedy program defended Melania Trump’s decision to wear designer stiletto heels to tour the devastation wreaked by Hurricane Harvey in Houston, Texas. (Of course, the tony first couple ended up comforting a grand total of zero survivors, and the best evidence the White House could muster to back Trump’s assertion that he’d witnessed “firsthand” the “devastation” was a photo of him in a conference room looking at a map.)

On Thursday night, host Trevor Noah took another surprising stance: railing against Antifa, a movement of anti-fascist groups who oppose white supremacy via direct action. Recently, members of the group clashed with bands of neo-Nazis in Charlottesville, Virginia, and a few were seen beating down a neo-Nazi at a protest in Berkeley, California, in a clip that went viral. These incidents are of course outliers, and the vast majority of their membership—who are often confused with the black bloc—engage in forms of nonviolent protest.

Noah opened his spiel with a clip of a supposed Antifa member defending breaking a store window as a “symbolic act.”

...

“You see, now, here’s the real problem: It doesn’t matter what your noble goal may be, it doesn’t matter what you say you’re fighting for. When people see that, all they think is, ‘Oh shit, it’s Vegan ISIS,’” said Noah. “Because you don’t realize when you think you’re punching Nazis, you don’t realize that you’re also punching your cause. Because your opponents, they’ll just use every violent incident to discredit your entire movement, and they make it seem like—they make it seem like—in a world where white supremacists have a friend in the White House, the real problem is you guys.”

 

[Teaboy]

Trevor Noah is a massive smug twat. That is all.

 

[J Ed]

Trevor Noah is a massive smug twat. That is all.

The American liberal comedians are all so awful, politically bad and just unfunny with it.

 

[NoXion]

I expect the fascists think along those lines too.

Obviously society cannot tolerate everyone going around beating up anyone they want because they think their politics is abhorrent, even when it is.

Fascists have a proven history of not just beating people up, but of committing murder (with and without help from the state), warmongering and fucking genocide. If it takes a few broken jaws to prevent that from happening - again - then I say that's a price worth paying.

 

[Nylock]

Andrew Hertford -
This:

'Selling a newspaper' is a nicely safe way to put it, removes any actual notion of the content that's likely to be in it or the intent behind it. Also a bit grandiose to call the sort of shite they put out a 'newspaper'. Frame it honestly - if someone came to your door trying to promote the idea that you or your neighbours are racially inferior, deserve to be ethnically cleansed, forcefully deported, violently attacked or thrown in a gas chamber how would you react? How about if they and their friends are out every day preaching it too? Maybe putting their ideas into action when they feel safe to do so as well? That's the reality of what these people do, don't try to sanitise it into some mundane and normal political pastime.

And you really need to look at the history of Fascism before you make any more inane comments, Der Sturmer was operated by people 'just selling newspapers', I'd say the effect they had was more than worthy of a bit of aggression in return. No doubt it wouldn't have stopped them from being racist, might have made them think twice about gleefully pushing their poison into communities though.

This:

'common sense' is what people with no solid argument appeal to, along with made up newspaper sellers knocking at your door.

This:

British political history begs to differ.

Battle of Cable Street - Wikipedia

This:

Andrew Hertford, this isn't cricket. Fascists aren't going to play by the rules of liberal democracy. All you'd achieve by asking anti-fascists to do so is hamper any effective response.

Only one thing could have stopped our movement – if our adversaries had understood its principle and from the first day smashed with the utmost brutality the nucleus of our new movement.

For once, I agree with him.

This:

People have decided they will not be marched off to camps again and they won't allow the regimes that would do that to come to power. That's the common sense - simple as that and no way around it. Hertford's counter plan of being nice and reasonable is as powerless to stop that common sense as it was too stop the fascists taking power in Italy and then Germany.

...and especially this:

Fascists have a proven history of not just beating people up, but of committing murder (with and without help from the state), warmongering and fucking genocide. If it takes a few broken jaws to prevent that from happening - again - then I say that's a price worth paying.

You fucking liberal tool.

 

[krtek a houby]

Trevor Noah is a massive smug twat. That is all.

But he's not totally far off the mark when he says
"Because your opponents, they’ll just use every violent incident to discredit your entire movement, and they make it seem like—they make it seem like—in a world where white supremacists have a friend in the White House, the real problem is you guys."
I don't think he's dissing antifa as such,just pointing out that antifa can be smeared and unfairly compared to the nazis. Which they are not.Isn't that what he'sgettingat?Or have I read him wrong on this statement?

 

[butchersapron]

Maybe he shouldn't smear them and compare them to the nazis then?

 

[butchersapron]

The logic seems to be that fascists will resist attempts to oppose them, so don't.

 

[NoXion]

The fascists will lie no matter what. Even if anti-fascism committed no remotely violent acts whatsoever, the fash would lie their stinking hides off and unfortunately there would be some tools willing to believe them.

 

[butchersapron]

The fascists will lie no matter what. Even if anti-fascism committed no remotely violent acts whatsoever, the fash would lie their stinking hides off and unfortunately there would be some tools willing to believe them.

Noah thinks their lies should be rewarded by stopping militant opposition to the liars.

 

[butchersapron]

Maybe he could sort of oppose and expose the lies and smears he has identified rather than making them effective?

 

[krtek a houby]

The fascists will lie no matter what. Even if anti-fascism committed no remotely violent acts whatsoever, the fash would lie their stinking hides off and unfortunately there would be some tools willing to believe them.

I'm still a pacifist but I cannot bring myself in any way to condemn people who are brave enough to stand up to nazi scum. The kind of people who try to equate antifa with nazis are basically nazi apologists and would probably have been giving Rosa Parks grief and character assasinations galore back in the day for staying put.

Fuck the nazis. There's no middle ground.Even I get that.

 

[J Ed]

I'm still a pacifist but I cannot bring myself in any way to condemn people who are brave enough to stand up to nazi scum. The kind of people who try to equate antifa with nazis are basically nazi apologists and would probably have been giving Rosa Parks grief and character assasinations galore back in the day for staying put.

Yep, and that was where the political middle ground seemed to be a week ago. Many have changed their mind (again) since then though it seems.

 

[krtek a houby]

Yep, and that was where the political middle ground seemed to be a week ago. Many have changed their mind (again) since then though it seems.

Well, in Noah's case, I do think he's stating how easy it is for nazi scum to descend on antifa and try and turn the tables. I don't believe he's against antifa.

America has a proud history of civil rights and also actual left wing opposition to corportatism. as you know. But that history is rarely celebrated these days.It's all gone centerist shite politics.

This late night comedic analysis is the best there is for now. America doesn't have the stomach for a proper in your face opposition because the odds are stacked against it.

Depressing, isn;t it?

That said,Charlottsville is not something that's going to go away anytime soon. It's an indelible stain on the land of freedom and all that shite. The far right and their lickspittles can lob their antifa memes about all they like but I feel human decency will rise to the top.

mm. feeling more postive now.

 

[J Ed]

The 'late night comedic analysis' is actively trying to forestall active opposition, something which clearly a lot of people do have the stomach for.

 

[butchersapron]

Indeed, it's seeking to make that 'for now' in krteks post extend into the future - like a shit millionaire comedian tutting at you forever.


Franco has rebelled! Quick turn the telly on for some late night comedic analysis! Shit it's only the afternoon!

 

[butchersapron]

The one's i'm enjoying are the conservative ones invoking Orwell against militant anti-fascism. The same Orwell who went a thousand miles in order to pick up a gun to kill fascists.

 

[Pickman's model]

The one's i'm enjoying are the conservative ones invoking Orwell against militant anti-fascism. The same Orwell who went a thousand miles in order to pick up a gun to kill fascists.

i liked this bit:



oh noes the right to bear arms grand until the wrong people start picking them up

 

[krtek a houby]

The 'late night comedic analysis' is actively trying to forestall active opposition, something which clearly a lot of people do have the stomach for.

I've not seen that yet; but I'll take your word for it. Can you post a few recent examples and I shall take a look.

Signing out for now for some zzzz's. Cheers.

 

[8den]

What point are you making in relation to what I actually said?

Would there have been a successful outcome at Charlottesville if antifa had turned up with assault rifles as well?

Antifa were there in response to Fash. If WS & Neo Nazis hadn't been there, they wouldn't have been there.

And your attempt to put some kind of moral equivalence between anti Fash and Nazis who arrive with machine guns and drive cars into people is fucking nuts.

 

[redsquirrel]

Trevor Noah is a massive smug twat. That is all.

He's worse than that he's fucking filth. A grade A cunt. Every bit as much the enemy as Trump.

This is the slimeball that called those criticising Obama for taking $600,000 from a financial company racist.

 

[redsquirrel]

Indeed, it's seeking to make that 'for now' in krteks post extend into the future - like a shit millionaire comedian tutting at you forever.


Franco has rebelled! Quick turn the telly on for some late night comedic analysis! Shit it's only the afternoon!

 

[hot air baboon]

i liked this bit:

View attachment 114770

oh noes the right to bear arms grand until the wrong people start picking them up

 

[ViolentPanda]

What the hell is ‘freedom to disagree with someone physically’? Please explain. Is it some kind of universal right, or does it only extend to self-appointed “soldiers” and dispensers of violent justice like you?

You're getting desperate now, Andrew. You're clutching at straws.
The estate I'm talking about, in Battersea, had - during the late '70s and early '80s - an ethnic minority population of over 40%. Most of them were young families, second generation British Caribbeans and British Pakistanis. The act of the NF coming onto our estate - mob-handed, 15 or 20 of them at a time - to sell their papers was not coincidence, it was targeted intimidation of those minorities who were mostly people with too much to lose if they retaliated to the intimidation. We had estate meetings - three in one week - where a small group of us, mostly in their late teens and early twenties, offered to take on the NF, with the aim of scaring them off of revisiting our estate. Given that their glorious noncing führer "Greasy" Martin Webster was a local, we knew the numbers they could call on locally, so we knew what we were taking on, and were confident of achieving our aim. We did: In the space of a couple of months we challenged them every time they came on our estate - we set up a phone tree (a lot harder back then, as only 1 in 3 had a landline) as a kind of "early warning system", then blocked them whenever they appeared, and guess what? Even though our numbers were usually half theirs, they either backed off, or as soon as we retaliated to them attacking us physically, they ran. Shit, Chelsea-supporting wankers. We even went to the pub they hung around in, just up the road from our estate, and let them know they weren't welcome on our estate, and the consequences if they came around looking for a fight.

You ask what I mean by "freedom to disagree with someone physically", the above. If someone comes into territory that isn't theirs, and tries to cause trouble - and attempting to sell NF papers on an estate with a high ethnic minority population was an attempt to cause trouble - then most anti-fascists, most people with a sense of human decency will react, first with words and then, if the words don't work, with physical force. It may verge on illegality ("Breach of the Peace" comes to mind), but it's a human reaction. What are you going to do, Hertford? Turn your back on your community because your liberal values don't include defending your community beyond calling a police force whose local members have been complicit in covering up NF attacks in the area?

Here's the thing that vapid liberals such as yourself fail to appreciate: We never initiated aggro, we only ever reacted to it. The same is true of myself and a lot of anti-fascists I knew regarding any anti-fascist or anti-racist protest I've been on. You take a swing at me or mine, and I'll do my best to finish the fight that you started. You get in my face with your racist crap, and I'll get in yours with anti-racism, and if that intimidates you into moving off, then good. If it intimidates you into taking a swing, that's also good. You've just licenced me to react accordingly.

By the way, would you beat up someone selling or distributing religious fundamentalist stuff outside your local Church or Mosque?

As I've said over and over again in the near 15 years I've posted on Urban, I don't throw the first punch, but if that religious nutter got in my face about it, I'd give them some verbal back. If they then physically attack me, I'll react accordingly. What I won't do, is walk away from intimidation.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Hertford once said seeing a few black bloc at a march kicking in a bank window reminded him of kristellnacht. Yet you've got torch lit fash processions and a person killed by the fash and whats the plank saying? joke

Yep, and when you mention that invidious comparison, he puts his persecuted hat on. Thing is, he's never disavowed that stupid comparison, has he?

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Mnuchin Doesn’t Endorse Placing Harriet Tubman on the New $20 Bill

No, they wouldn't want to change something so beloved to themselves as their money, would they?

 

[J Ed]

I've not seen that yet; but I'll take your word for it. Can you post a few recent examples and I shall take a look.

Signing out for now for some zzzz's. Cheers.

Here is the worst most recent example but there are plenty out there.



The Daily Show railed against Code Pink for their activism against the Iraq War, Kucinich for opposing Obama's drone massacres and attempts to privatise social security and in fact Stewart and Colbert held a 'Rally to Restore Sanity' which was a rally designed to enforce deference towards centrist politics and civil discourse at a time when they could instead of tried to get George W Bush out of office. These same forces were very active in promoting the berniebro smear during the primaries. Liberal celebs play a very pernicious, reactionary role in US politics, doing their best to ensure that potential opposition to neoliberalism never develops.

 

[8den]

Speak of the Devil.

FBI, Homeland Security warn of more ‘antifa’ attacks

the Department of Homeland Security formally classified their (AntiFa) activities as “domestic terrorist violence,” according to interviews and confidential law enforcement documents obtained by POLITICO.