brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
I think for most folk self-definition is all there is; do many people really know their ethnicity?
Census 2021
- Thread starter brogdale
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Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
do many people really care?
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
A valid question, but in this context, largely irrelevant. The point is that the state are making such an ethnic self-description a compulsory element of a compulsory document.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yes. but that doesn't mean people are going to focus their attention on it as the government might like
some 'sod it, i'll tick there' will doubtless go on
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
It’s a good one. The questioners actually want to know “what colour are you” but are trying to be polite.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Not only for that particular question, either!
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i think we could come up with a more entertaining and indeed informative survey of the nation.
for example 'what tv programme/s would you recommend in the following categories' (non-compulsory)
- drama
- comedy
- game show
- documentary
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Really? I think they are asking how people describe their ethnicity, because ethnicity is a massive part of how people are discriminated against. As we have discussed various times on the boards, being 'white; doesn't mean you aren't severely discriminated against for being Roma white, or Polish white, or Jewish white. So a simple 'what colour are you?' wouldn't reveal anything like the same amount of information.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
I never know how to answer, to be honest.
gentlegreen
I hummus, therefore I am ...
"none of the above"
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
if you've ever wondered how the nazis managed to find jews so efficiently you might be surprised to learn it was because they'd been honest in censuses. so since reading about that in edwin black's 'ibm and the holocaust' i've been rather more cagey about the information i provide the government through forms and the like - after all, you never know what they'll do with it even if they won't use it to kill you
I genuinely don’t know how to answer the ethnicity question. The question is a garbled mess of cultural and hereditary background, and this is made worse if you happen to have multiple backgrounds of both. It’s a subjective measure of a subjective concept, which makes it statistically dangerous as data.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
absolutely, IBM's involvement should be made much more of. And, as noted above, I can well understand the fears of such groups. Fortunately there has never been any example of UK census data being abused in any significant way.
There never is until it happens
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
That's certainly the explanation offered by the ONS when discussing why they decided against purely geographically determined categories; ; it didn't differentiate 'visible' and 'invisible' minorities:
Interesting that the state seem keen for folk to self-define their national identity, ethnicity and sex but don't ask similar question about the issue arguably behind the largest aggregate discrimination in neoliberal societies...class.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
The question isn't garbled at all, it is perfectly straight forward. How you define 'ethnicity' may be, but that is your definition. If you believe it is mutli-multiple, write that in.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
there are questions about class throughout.
It’s garbled in how it’s interpreting the concept of ethnicity. This confuses the whole process.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
In which case you'll be able to point me to the question where respondents are invited to describe their class.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
I don’t think they want my ethnicity.
If we took belboid’s advice literally, the ONS would end up with 20 million unique ethnicity categories. This would be no use to anyone.
Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
It’s going to be so much fun asking these questions.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
you do love your non-sequiturs. To repeat, they ask questions about class throughout.
MickiQ
In My Defence I was left Unsupervised
I can't remember any questions about ethnicity in the last census was there one? If there was I can't remember what I put for it. For me it's simple white British, English if I'm going to be fussy about it (though I have a few Welsh, Irish and French genes knocking around in there)
For Mrs Q it's a tad more interesting, Her father is white but her mother is Filipina making her half white/half Asian. Our kids are three quarter white/one quarter Asian but they look more Asian than white and even my grandson where his Filipino genes are down to 12.5% has got his mothers colouring especially brown eyes and jet black hair, People have commented that he looks Mediterranean.
As for my 75% technically white son he told me that during his first couple of weeks at Uni people complimented him on what good English he spoke for a Korean.
For Mrs Q it's a tad more interesting, Her father is white but her mother is Filipina making her half white/half Asian. Our kids are three quarter white/one quarter Asian but they look more Asian than white and even my grandson where his Filipino genes are down to 12.5% has got his mothers colouring especially brown eyes and jet black hair, People have commented that he looks Mediterranean.
As for my 75% technically white son he told me that during his first couple of weeks at Uni people complimented him on what good English he spoke for a Korean.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
no they wouldnt. Most people will simply tick the very first box (again). Cos most people aren't trying to be smart arses. But if that is your belief, go for it.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
You were, I think, responding to this?
I think you'd agree that the census doesn't, in fact, include a question asking respondents to best describe their class, unlike national identity, ethnicity and gender.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Aah, there's that telling smilie again.....
Ones national identity etc are primarily determined by yourself, you can reject societies definition if you desire. Class is based on objective material conditions. I think I have seen you, I've certainly seen many people, note this fact as a reason why 'identity politics' is inferior (for want of a better word) to class politics.
Ones national identity etc are primarily determined by yourself, you can reject societies definition if you desire. Class is based on objective material conditions. I think I have seen you, I've certainly seen many people, note this fact as a reason why 'identity politics' is inferior (for want of a better word) to class politics.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Aah, so you do agree
that's a start, I suppose.I don't think the UK state has ever attempted to categorise class in purely Marxist terms but, just to play along with your line for a moment, if that were the case, there doesn't seem to be any question relating to ownership of the means of production.
In which case, for a state that you say is so concerned to ameliorate discrimination, it seems something of an oversight not to ask respondents to self describe their class as is done for the other innate and acquired characteristics in questions 14. 15. 16 & 27.
e2a :
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Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
My brother had his DNA done, and aside from the 60-odd per cent Irish, the rest was a hodge-podge of English, Scottish, Scandinavian, Spanish, Central and Eastern European. So, I'm wondering if he'll now put the full breakdown on the form? I think he should
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Aah, so you do agree
I don't think the UK state has ever attempted to categorise class in purely Marxist terms but, just to play along with your line for a moment, if that were the case, there doesn't seem to be any question relating to ownership of the means of production.
In which case, for a state that you say is so concerned to ameliorate discrimination, it seems something of an oversight not to ask respondents to self describe their class as is done for the other innate and acquired characteristics in questions 14. 15. 16 & 27.
e2a :
lol
The census provides information which is available (for free) to anyone to use and interpret. It isn't about forcing categories on people.
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