Census 2021

[A380]

that's nothing, islam was made up by mohammed and everyone knows this

Can I have your watch?

 

[belboid]

We don’t get the option until ‘22, but it’s worth the troll.

It's as useful to know as knowing if someone considers themself to be English rather than British, or whatever, so why the hell not?

 

[belboid]

According to the state, (ONS), it does. If believers in Scientology thought it were not a religion they could tick the "No religion" box.
All of which, again, brings into focus the value of the question.

massive logic fail there.


Such data is collated and released - 81 people put heavy metal as their religion in Sheffield last time. For all practical purposes they are filed along with any other non-believers, or maybe as 'others' depending upon the whim of whoever is using the data . They are too few to statistically significant to show up as even 0.1% anywhere other than Brighton, which means they don't particularly impact upon any other groups' figures. They have yet to claim any form of discrimination against them or adaptations required (in the workplace say) to meet the needs of their belief system , nor have they tried to claim charitable status which would force the law to clarify the situation. Oddly enough, simply writing something in a box doesn't make it magically become a reality.

 

[Orang Utan]

According to the state, (ONS), it does. If believers in Scientology thought it were not a religion they could tick the "No religion" box.
All of which, again, brings into focus the value of the question.

Irrelevant

 

[Orang Utan]

If Jedis are a real religion, let’s persecute them and see if they’re prepared to be martyred for their faith. They’d change their tune quickly

 

[belboid]

Oh, I should have spent six seconds googling.

Jedi isn't a religion, the Charity Commission so ruled in 2016.

Jedi is not a religion, Charity Commission rules

Jedi, the worship of the mythology of Star Wars is not a religion, says the Charity Commission.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[xenon]

Oh nos, not the charity commission....

 

[danny la rouge]

Oh, I should have spent six seconds googling.

Jedi isn't a religion, the Charity Commission so ruled in 2016.

Jedi is not a religion, Charity Commission rules

Jedi, the worship of the mythology of Star Wars is not a religion, says the Charity Commission.

www.bbc.co.uk

If they’re going to start ruling on what is and isn’t a “real” religion, they’re going to have to explain what the line is and why they chose it.

 

[brogdale]

Irrelevant

This is a thread about the census.

 

[brogdale]

massive logic fail there.

I've not claimed that the census question is logical.

 

[belboid]

If they’re going to start ruling on what is and isn’t a “real” religion, they’re going to have to explain what the line is and why they chose it.

They did.

 

[belboid]

I've not claimed that the census question is logical.

No, you claimed that because one government department includes space to write whatever you like to describe your religion, that means that the state accepts whatever is written there as a 'religion' in any other circumstance. It does not.

All it means is that sometime next year there will be a number of the amount of people who wrote 'jedi' on a form.

 

[danny la rouge]

They did.

Oh ffs, do I have to read everything myself now? I thought this was Urban75!

 

[AmateurAgitator]

I am actually a member of the Church of the Latter Day Dude

Get Ordained for Free at the Religion of Dudeism

Get ordained for free at the world's most easygoing religion. Inspired by The Big Lebowski, Taoism, Zen and more.

dudeism.com

They do certificates of ordination as well and you can become a Dudeist Priest.

 

[Orang Utan]

This is a thread about the census.

So?

 

[belboid]

Oh ffs, do I have to read everything myself now? I thought this was Urban75!

Its long and boring, or I'd precis for you. Essentially referred them to Arkell vs Pressdram

 

[belboid]

I am actually a member of the Church of the Latter Day Dude

Get Ordained for Free at the Religion of Dudeism

Get ordained for free at the world's most easygoing religion. Inspired by The Big Lebowski, Taoism, Zen and more.

dudeism.com

They do certificates of ordination as well and you can become a Dudeist Priest.

I've forgotten which church I'm ordained in, but it allows me to carry out weddings in 31 states (it claimed at the time)

 

[Orang Utan]

I've forgotten which church I'm ordained in, but it allows me to carry out weddings in 31 states (it claimed at the time)

I’m a minister in the Universal Life Church

 

[gentlegreen]

I’m a minister in the Universal Life Church

snap

 

[brogdale]

No, you claimed that because one government department includes space to write whatever you like to describe your religion, that means that the state accepts whatever is written there as a 'religion' in any other circumstance. It does not.

All it means is that sometime next year there will be a number of the amount of people who wrote 'jedi' on a form.

But those ticking the "Other religion" box will figure in the state's (ONS) data.
I think you're getting a bit confused about what a religion is and what the Charity Commission considers a religion for the purpose of defining charitable tax status. For instance, Paganism is recorded under 'Other Religions' and yet the Pagan federation has not succeeded in attaining charitable status.

Did the ONS go back and disaggregate the 2011 Jedi data from the 'Other religion' category and add them to 'No religion'?

 

[brogdale]

So?

So, I'm struggling to see how you can cast a discussion about the definition of religion in the religion question in the census in a thread about the census as "irrelevant'.

 

[Orang Utan]

So, I'm struggling to see how you can cast a discussion about the definition of religion in the religion question in the census in a thread about the census as "irrelevant'.

Cos we were talking about whether Jedi was a religion or not. It isn’t. People can put it in a field on a survey form but doing that doesn’t make it a religion

 

[belboid]

But those ticking the "Other religion" box will figure in the state's (ONS) data.
I think you're getting a bit confused about what a religion is and what the Charity Commission considers a religion for the purpose of defining charitable tax status. For instance, Paganism is recorded under 'Other Religions' and yet the Pagan federation has not succeeded in attaining charitable status.

Did the ONS go back and disaggregate the 2011 Jedi data from the 'Other religion' category and add them to 'No religion'?

No, as I have already said twice, they give the exact number of people writing jedi and leave it up to whoever is using the data to do with it what they want. That's a beauty of the data, the interpretation is actually left to the user, it isn't determined by the state, or even by the ONS.

I note how you have changed the terms of your argument though.

 

[belboid]

Cos we were talking about whether Jedi was a religion or not. It isn’t. People can put it in a field on a survey form but doing that doesn’t make it a religion

note the smilie - always a clear sign

 

[brogdale]

No, as I have already said twice, they give the exact number of people writing jedi and leave it up to whoever is using the data to do with it what they want. That's a beauty of the data, the interpretation is actually left to the user, it isn't determined by the state, or even by the ONS.

I note how you have changed the terms of your argument though.

No, you're wrong about that. The discussion wasn't about the 'beauty' of how the data might be interpreted; it was just about whether or not the state statisticians include write-in religions under the 'Other religion' category.

Here is a link to the file which shows the full classification of religions in
England and Wales and how they were grouped for the Key Statistics KS07

In a response to an FoI about the Jedi inclusion the ONS said:

The religion question was voluntary in the 2001 Census. Respondents were
given the opporunity to write in their religion in the 'any other
religion' box. All 'write in' religions would have been assigned to one
of the codes in the above file. Jedi was included so that it could be
autocoded rather than referred for manual intervention as there was a
campaign to encourage people to enter this on the form.

 

[kabbes]

Subjective belief combined with ritual makes something a religion. If it’s sincerely held, I don’t see that any outsider can countermand that

 

[brogdale]

Cos we were talking about whether Jedi was a religion or not. It isn’t. People can put it in a field on a survey form but doing that doesn’t make it a religion

Maybe that's what you thought was being discussed. What I said was that the state statisticians included it in their 'Other religions' category.

 

[Orang Utan]

Maybe that's what you thought was being discussed. What I said was that the state statisticians included it in their 'Other religions' category.

That doesn’t make it a religion

 

[brogdale]

That doesn’t make it a religion

According to?

 

[Orang Utan]

According to?

Anyone with any sense