Bitcoin discussion and news

[Saul Goodman]

The irony is that these revolutionists, who are at the cusp of freedom from the capitalist system, are, in fact, the worst type of capitalist. Not only plundering the planet's resources to enrichen themselves, but accruing wealth off the back of others' misery.

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

Bitcoin from the beginning was always an economic weapon of the ultra-right libertarians and has remained so. That’s why the likes of Musk are so into it.

If his public statements are to be believed, Elon Musk personally owns 0.25 btc, approx $25k.

 

[gosub]

There are two financial systems, one run by governments, and primarily controlled by the US and its oligarchs, and the other permissionless, decentralised, borderless neutral one. The second uses far less energy than the first.

Bitcoin mining is the greenest industry bar none. This is not a coincidence, but a function of bitcoin because renewable and waste energy is and will always be far cheaper to generate energy from than fossil fuel.

There isnt a fixed amount of energy on earth and when that gets used up, the lights go out. 44 quadrillion (4.4 x 10^16) watts of energy hits the earth from the sun every day, thats a hundreds of thousands multiple of current global energy usage, but because electricity is so difficult to transport, fossil fuels are preferred so that energy can be generated near to industrial and residential areas.



Its early days, bitcoin is less than 16 years old, but it is definitely making an impact. particularly in the renewables development section.

I'm not a bitcoin maxi, I do dabble in crypto, but I am bitcoin first. The way I see it is that all the value captured in crypto is essentially bitcoin value and other chains - like ethereum, cosmos, solana etc are testnets. Eventually their functionality will be absorbed by bitcoin but bitcoin needs to be super secure, so progress on novel usecases is slow and carefully checked, whereas crypto can move fast and break things, try random experiments (eg smart contracts, NFTs, AI Agents) and see how they work out.

Bitcoin is solid tech, extremely robust and its relatively straightforward, you can set up a wallet and start transacting on chain within minutes.
Crypto is experimental, buggy, complex and difficult to properly understand. The mistake that many people make is that they jump right into crypto without understanding bitcoin, because crypto has marketing, VC funding, foundations, governance etc. encouraging them to. Bitcoin has none of that.


I dont troll about bitcoin (well maybe occasionally when kabbes really pisses me off), what I say is sincere, so no I cant imagine that would be me, I dont use reddit all that much anyway.


No. Again, it doesnt work like that.

Umm...328 pages in and you haven't worked out that I've found a way not to use fiat?

I mean yeah, I do still have a bank account after a short lived experiment in 2017 when I tried to go full bitcoin and had a massive row with my electricity supplier who wouldnt accept bitcoin payments (they did in the end, but fuck me that was a nightmare) and decided that the world was not quite ready... and I do keep some cash, but fiat is definitely not my monetary system. I get rid of fiat as quickly as I can tbh.

The overcapacity China has in renewable manufacter is enough to completely skew that market for the foreseeable. Intresting that despite a blanket crypto ban in China they still have control of 55% of the bitcoin hashrate.

The Smot Hawley tarriffs came in under Hoover...Exec 6102 came in after under Roosovelt.

 

[Maggot]

No. Again, it doesnt work like that.

Umm...328 pages in and you haven't worked out that I've found a way not to use fiat?

I mean yeah, I do still have a bank account after a short lived experiment in 2017 when I tried to go full bitcoin and had a massive row with my electricity supplier who wouldnt accept bitcoin payments (they did in the end, but fuck me that was a nightmare) and decided that the world was not quite ready... and I do keep some cash, but fiat is definitely not my monetary system. I get rid of fiat as quickly as I can tbh.

Excuse me for not reading the other 327 pages.

I see. That explains why you come up with these ludicrous justifications like blaming the genocide on conventional currency.

 

[BristolEcho]

Which energy suppliers are accepting bitcoin?

 

[gosub]

Just a little bit of history repeating...

Smot Hawley contributed to depression but with overcapacity in manufacturing and dumping growing on tarrifs were the the order of the day. Tarriffs on renewables got to be in pipeline (along with EVs - another story).

Exec 6102 shows anything can be contraband ..and that can impact on its ability to be currency. Equally as much as you sneer at FIAT historically its interact with other currencies that help with angular velocity be it rum , coke , gasoline or whatever is just more of the system of world, same as it ever was.

 

[nogojones]

The fact that hundreds of thousands of corpses is not in your direct line of sight doesn't absolve you from the fact that your monetary system enabled a genocide.

Of course the expenditure of energy on the blockchain is more than your household's monthly use - its an international global money system used by millions on every continent ffs.

Along with the genocide, "our" monetary system has also funded the NHS, education, infrastructure and all that junk. Bitcoin tries to avoid funding those along with the bad things. It's not particularly targeted.

 

[xenon]

What happens when all the bitcoins have been mined?

 

[nogojones]

Just for clarity though, can anyone confirm that every bitcoin transaction uses $200 worth of lecky please?

Because the bit I don't get is if I buy £10 worth of bitcoin (plus whatever daft fee is attached), then someones loosing out if every transaction is so costly, and given the nature of the crypto industry, I doubt that the miners, exchanges or whoever fancy taking that hit.

 

[xenon]

So according to this, once 21mil or just under have been mined, miners, will earn through transaction fees. But it seems BTC will be akin to gold. Just holding value because the consensus illusion that it holds value. It's not tied to anything other than the computational work that was required to create it.

What Happens to Bitcoin After All 21 Million Are Mined?

Bitcoin, the first and most popular cryptocurrency, is finite. Here's what could happen when it reaches its total maximum supply of 21 million bitcoins.

www.investopedia.com

How's this different to gold? How is this a utopian liberation again?

 

[kabbes]

Just for clarity though, can anyone confirm that every bitcoin transaction uses $200 worth of lecky please?

Because the bit I don't get is if I buy £10 worth of bitcoin (plus whatever daft fee is attached), then someones loosing out if every transaction is so costly, and given the nature of the crypto industry, I doubt that the miners, exchanges or whoever fancy taking that hit.

Most bitcoin transactions are for much much more than a tenner, which is why it pays to be a bitcoin miner. And yes, that’s how much electricity it averages out as costing per transaction. The cost is disconnected from the activity of the transaction, so the miner only cares that they make money across all transactions.

 

[nogojones]

So according to this, once 21mil or just under have been mined, miners, will earn through transaction fees. But it seems BTC will be akin to gold. Just holding value because the consensus illusion that it holds value. It's not tied to anything other than the computational work that was required to create it.

What Happens to Bitcoin After All 21 Million Are Mined?

Bitcoin, the first and most popular cryptocurrency, is finite. Here's what could happen when it reaches its total maximum supply of 21 million bitcoins.

www.investopedia.com

How's this different to gold? How is this a utopian liberation again?

The prospect of mining gold goes on I guess? Dig deeper, plunder the ocean floor.

Though when all the bitcoins are mined, that's it...... Unless you just move onto the next twatcoin or whatever

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

Which energy suppliers are accepting bitcoin?

After an immense amount of wrangling, npower did in 2017.

Along with the genocide, "our" monetary system has also funded the NHS, education, infrastructure and all that junk. Bitcoin tries to avoid funding those along with the bad things. It's not particularly targeted.

There is a lot of stuff being done on ethereum on retroactive public goods funding. Real world usecases are still in their infancy and even onchain funding has been difficult, but it will come.

What happens when all the bitcoins have been mined?

Once all the bitcoins have been mined, bitcoin becomes deflationary as coins can only be lost and there are no new coins becoming available. At that point the block reward will be tiny, and the majority of miner revenue will be coming from the fees that users pay to get their transaction included in a block.

 

[nogojones]

Most bitcoin transactions are for much much more than a tenner, which is why it pays to be a bitcoin miner. And yes, that’s how much electricity it averages out as costing per transaction. The cost is disconnected from the activity of the transaction, so the miner only cares that they make money across all transactions.

So the potential is there that if lots and lots of small transactions took place miners will be squeezed? Or am I totally missing something?

 

[stdP]

And if we burn down all the forests, we'll have even more problems to solve.

Since we adopted the leaf as legal tender we've all become amazingly rich... but we've run in to a little bit of an inflation problem owing to the high degree of leaf availability, so I think the going rate is three deciduous forests for one ship's peanut. So we're embarking on a programme of fiscal rationalisation and we're going to burn down all the forests.

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

Just for clarity though, can anyone confirm that every bitcoin transaction uses $200 worth of lecky please?

Because the bit I don't get is if I buy £10 worth of bitcoin (plus whatever daft fee is attached), then someones loosing out if every transaction is so costly, and given the nature of the crypto industry, I doubt that the miners, exchanges or whoever fancy taking that hit.

There are fees associated with bitcoin transactions, at the moment they are around 6 sats/byte (1 sat = 0.00000001btc= $0.001), which users pay to get their transactions included in a block. If the network is congested those fees can spike, but they usually come down again pretty quickly. Those fees are aggregated and go to the miner who wins the next block along with the block reward.

All the miners, not just the winner, pay for the electricity they use to mine bitcoin, but there is only one winner every 10 minutes.

Most bitcoin transactions are for much much more than a tenner, which is why it pays to be a bitcoin miner. And yes, that’s how much electricity it averages out as costing per transaction. The cost is disconnected from the activity of the transaction, so the miner only cares that they make money across all transactions.

It doesnt matter how many transactions there are, or how much each transaction is worth - either in fiat or in bitcoin.

The fiat cost of producing a block - which happens every 10 minutes is a function of the amount of power being provided to the network and the fiat cost of the energy that was bought to provide it.

 

[nogojones]

After an immense amount of wrangling, npower did in 2017.

I'd love to hear a recording of that phone conversation. The poor fucking call handler. As if their days ain't bad enough. I hope you at least did it with humour to try and lighten their shift.

There is a lot of stuff being done on ethereum on retroactive public goods funding. Real world usecases are still in their infancy and even onchain funding has been difficult, but it will come.

Ah, mañana

 

[nogojones]

There are fees associated with bitcoin transactions, at the moment they are around 6 sats/byte (1 sat = 0.00000001btc= $0.001), which users pay to get their transactions included in a block. If the network is congested those fees can spike, but they usually come down again pretty quickly. Those fees are aggregated and go to the miner who wins the next block along with the block reward.

All the miners, not just the winner, pay for the electricity they use to mine bitcoin, but there is only one winner every 10 minutes.

It doesnt matter how many transactions there are, or how much each transaction is worth - either in fiat or in bitcoin.

The fiat cost of producing a block - which happens every 10 minutes is a function of the amount of power being provided to the network and the fiat cost of the energy that was bought to provide it.

Sorry to sound dumb, but does mining and transactions have different lecky costs? If so, does the fee paid by the buyer cover the transaction cost?

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

So the potential is there that if lots and lots of small transactions took place miners will be squeezed? Or am I totally missing something?

The thing you are missing is that the cost is incurred in providing power to the network in the hope of winning the next block and getting the 3.5btc reward+transaction fees of all the txs in that block.

If there are lots of transactions, miners would be quite happy as each of them would be paying a fee, so they would get more on top of the block reward. The size of each transaction doesnt matter*. So a block with lots of transactions might get them 3.8btc, whereas a block with fewer transactions might get them only 3.55.

The thing that matters is how many others they are competing with and therefore how much energy they need to provide to win a block.

Think of it like a recurring lottery, where someone can buy as many tickets as they want with a variable prize

. If you buy a ticket and only 5 other people buy a ticket, you have a better chance of winning than if 5000 people buy a ticket. So you now buy 1000 tickets to maintain your chances, so everyone else ups their stake as well, but then if the winnings (the price of fiat measured in bitcoin), goes below the cost of buying tickets (the cost of buying energy), you are going to buy less tickets.



*techically it kindof does, if there are multiple UTXOs within the one transaction, but UTXO management is a bit advanced, and can be safely ignored.

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

I'd love to hear a recording of that phone conversation. The poor fucking call handler. As if their days ain't bad enough. I hope you at least did it with humour to try and lighten their shift.

It wasnt a single phone call, I assure you. It was MONTHS AND MONTHS of phone calls, chat logs and emails.

 

[nogojones]

The thing you are missing is that the cost is incurred in providing power to the network in the hope of winning the next block and getting the 3.5btc reward+transaction fees of all the txs in that block.

If there are lots of transactions, miners would be quite happy as each of them would be paying a fee, so they would get more on top of the block reward. The size of each transaction doesnt matter*. So a block with lots of transactions might get them 3.8btc, whereas a block with fewer transactions might get them only 3.55.

The thing that matters is how many others they are competing with and therefore how much energy they need to provide to win a block.

Think of it like a recurring lottery, where someone can buy as many tickets as they want with a variable prize

. If you buy a ticket and only 5 other people buy a ticket, you have a better chance of winning than if 5000 people buy a ticket. So you now buy 1000 tickets to maintain your chances, so everyone else ups their stake as well, but then if the winnings (the price of fiat measured in bitcoin), goes below the cost of buying tickets (the cost of buying energy), you are going to buy less tickets.



*techically it kindof does, if there are multiple UTXOs within the one transaction, but UTXO management is a bit advanced, and can be safely ignored.

Thanks. I think I get the concept now. So the leckey is constantly being ploughed into this system to keep these plates spinning, instead of being used to make cups of tea, power ventilators or recharge vibrators?

 

[nogojones]

It wasnt a single phone call, I assure you. It was MONTHS AND MONTHS of phone calls, chat logs and emails.

I've had that experience with TalkTalk just to fix my broadband. You really brought something special to the call handlers day.

Did you convert any of them?

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

Sorry to sound dumb, but does mining and transactions have different lecky costs? If so, does the fee paid by the buyer cover the transaction cost?

When you do a bitcoin transaction, say Alice sends Bob 1btc, Alice will have to pay a fee to get that tx included in the next block. If its urgent and she really needs it to go through on the next block, she can put in a high fee, but if its not all that urgent, she can put in a low fee and it might take a few blocks before miners want to include it because they will generally prioritise txes with high fees over txes with low ones. If the fee is too low, miners might not include it at all and she would have to resend it with a higher fee to get the tx in a block. This does not incur lecky costs beyond the ordinary use of her laptop or phone.

Miners on the other hand are continually providing power to the bitcoin network to gain the right to create the next block and therefore win the 3.25 btc reward and all the transaction fees associated with that block. The winner gets to choose which transactions to include, which is why miners prioritise high fee transactions.

There is a continual cost to providing power to the network, and the aggregated sum of all the power that all the miners are providing can be calculated in joules and then with a bit of maths can be used to divide the number of transactions by the power that is going into the network, which is what I am assuming Kabbes has done to come up with his £200 per transaction number.

But while the blocks secure the transactions they also secure ALL the bitcoin on the network, by keeping a continual record of where every coin is.

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

Thanks. I think I get the concept now. So the leckey is constantly being ploughed into this system to keep these plates spinning, instead of being used to make cups of tea, power ventilators or recharge vibrators?

Yes.

Blocks are produced every ten minutes. If more power (measured in "hashrate") is provided to the network, the block will be produced faster, then the difficulty adjustment kicks in to maintain the 10 min interval. If the reward is below the cost of energy, you get miner capitulation where miners switch off their rigs, and the total amount of power going into the network decreases.

 

[nogojones]

Yes.

Blocks are produced every ten minutes. If more power (measured in "hashrate") is provided to the network, the block will be produced faster, then the difficulty adjustment kicks in to maintain the 10 min interval. If the reward is below the cost of energy, you get miner capitulation where miners switch off their rigs, and the total amount of power going into the network decreases.

So if the price of bitcoin falls the world doesn't get warmer quicker?

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

So if the price of bitcoin falls the world doesn't get warmer quicker?

Most bitcoin mining is done from renewable sources, so only if the energy provider (which is frequently the miner themself) can sell that energy to someone else who uses it to replace fossil fuel based energy consumption would it impact climate change.

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

Ross Ulbricht is free!!

 

[gosub]

Most bitcoin mining is done from renewable sources, so only if the energy provider (which is frequently the miner themself) can sell that energy to someone else who uses it to replace fossil fuel based energy consumption would it impact climate change.

China which has 55% of the hash rate currently has renewables making up 35% of its energy supply