Bitcoin discussion and news

[kabbes]

Ok right, so the miners are burning the energy in return for future coins.

So presumably the number of transactions x $200 (ie the total energy cost of all transactions) is lower than the value of the 500 or so bitcoins that are currently mined each day ($50m)

Which means if there are more than 250,000 transactions a day - someone's losing out?

One of the many reasons that the thing literally cannot scale to act as a genuine unit of exchange.

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

It's generated at power stations.

Most of it, but its also generated from volcanos, flared gas, heaters and even toilets.

Bitcoin mining is a fairly unique energy usecase, as it can be consumed literally anywhere. Transporting electricity is difficult and expensive, it requires infrastructure and safety protections. So ideally you want energy to be produced very close to where it is consumed, this is where fossil fuel dominance comes in - oil and coal are relatively easy to transport to where you want the energy generated, however some of the most energy rich renewable sources are far from industrial and residential areas, so there is a cost to energy transportation. But a bitcoin mine can be set up literally anywhere, so it can consume energy that is inaccessible for regular uses and even harness excess energy that is usually flared.

Every time you buy another fraction of a bitcoin, you use more electricity in that one purchase than my household uses in a month. Every time. You can attempt to spin that any way you like, but it remains an environmental catastrophe regardless.

Doesn;t work like that.

Blocks are produced every 10 minutes, regardless of how many transactions are in them, or even if there are none at all. Producing a block consumes energy, each individual transaction within the block does not. The amount of energy it takes to produce a block is based on a dynamic adjustment which keeps the blocks coming every 10 minutes. The more people that are competing to mine the next block, the more energy it will take to mine it.

Sorry I should have been more precise. I mean who pays for it? Is it part of the transaction and paid by one of the parties, or is that the amount of energy that's burned through by the miners to administer the transaction.

The miners.

Every 10 minutes someone who is providing power to the bitcoin network (ie a miner) gets a reward in bitcoins. If more power goes into the bitcoin network, those blocks will be produced faster, so the blockchain dynamically adjusts the power needed to ensure that it maintains the 10 minute spacing. Miners typically use dedicated bitcoin mining machines to hash data in the hope of winning the next block and getting the block reward (currently 3.5 btc).

The most efficient modern miners use about 16 joules per terrahash, compared with 5 million Joules per terahash using a CPU (which was what people used when bitcoin first started. The current hashrate is around 800 Exahash.

 

[freshapple]

For the last 15 months an incredible amount of energy (and not clean energy either) has been used to bomb the fuck out of Gaza. Thats what "you" - as in the fiat community - decided to waste your energy on.

Not a single bomb was bought by bitcoin.

I would have thought that bitcoin could be used to buy bombs on the dark web?

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

I would have thought that bitcoin could be used to buy bombs on the dark web?

I have never seen it, or even seen it alleged.

If you think about the logistics of manufacture and transportation, I would suspect that anyone who wanted to buy a bomb would want to deal with known and aligned parties, rather than a random anon offering bombs for bitcoin.

 

[kabbes]

Most of it, but its also generated from volcanos, flared gas, heaters and even toilets.

Bitcoin mining is a fairly unique energy usecase, as it can be consumed literally anywhere. Transporting electricity is difficult and expensive, it requires infrastructure and safety protections. So ideally you want energy to be produced very close to where it is consumed, this is where fossil fuel dominance comes in - oil and coal are relatively easy to transport to where you want the energy generated, however some of the most energy rich renewable sources are far from industrial and residential areas, so there is a cost to energy transportation. But a bitcoin mine can be set up literally anywhere, so it can consume energy that is inaccessible for regular uses and even harness excess energy that is usually flared.

Doesn;t work like that.

Blocks are produced every 10 minutes, regardless of how many transactions are in them, or even if there are none at all. Producing a block consumes energy, each individual transaction within the block does not. The amount of energy it takes to produce a block is based on a dynamic adjustment which keeps the blocks coming every 10 minutes. The more people that are competing to mine the next block, the more energy it will take to mine it.


The miners.

Every 10 minutes someone who is providing power to the bitcoin network (ie a miner) gets a reward in bitcoins. If more power goes into the bitcoin network, those blocks will be produced faster, so the blockchain dynamically adjusts the power needed to ensure that it maintains the 10 minute spacing. Miners typically use dedicated bitcoin mining machines to hash data in the hope of winning the next block and getting the block reward (currently 3.5 btc).

The most efficient modern miners use about 16 joules per terrahash, compared with 5 million Joules per terahash using a CPU (which was what people used when bitcoin first started. The current hashrate is around 800 Exahash.

The fact that the energy cost is hidden from your personal impetus for it to be spent doesn’t absolve you of the fact that your single transaction is incentivising an expenditure of electricity that is more than my entire household’s monthly use.

 

[freshapple]

I have never seen it, or even seen it alleged.

If you think about the logistics of manufacture and transportation, I would suspect that anyone who wanted to buy a bomb would want to deal with known and aligned parties, rather than a random anon offering bombs for bitcoin.

You can definitely buy weapons though

https://www.weforum.org/stories/2018/12/the-sale-of-illegal-weapons-on-the-dark-web-and-the-impact-on-international-security/

 

[Saul Goodman]

You can definitely buy weapons though

https://www.weforum.org/stories/2018/12/the-sale-of-illegal-weapons-on-the-dark-web-and-the-impact-on-international-security/

Bitcoin only has two purposes. Buying illegal things, and transferring money from gullible people to those who prey on gullible people. Those involved in it will try to convince people otherwise but that's to be expected, as they're hardly going to admit to being a crook or a drug/arms dealer... or a gullible fool.

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

The fact that the energy cost is hidden from your personal impetus for it to be spent doesn’t absolve you of the fact that your single transaction is incentivising an expenditure of electricity that is more than my entire household’s monthly use.

The fact that hundreds of thousands of corpses is not in your direct line of sight doesn't absolve you from the fact that your monetary system enabled a genocide.

Of course the expenditure of energy on the blockchain is more than your household's monthly use - its an international global money system used by millions on every continent ffs.

 

[kabbes]

The fact that hundreds of thousands of corpses is not in your direct line of sight doesn't absolve you from the fact that your monetary system enabled a genocide.

Yes, the worldwide finance system enables genocide. And to the extent that bitcoin ever becomes part of that system (it is to laugh), it will become part of that genocide too. There’s nothing special about Bitcoin in that sense.

Of course the expenditure of energy on the blockchain is more than your household's monthly use - it’s an international global money system used by millions on every continent ffs.

No, it is not my energy expenditure per month across the system. It is my energy expenditure per month for every single Bitcoin transaction. You think that the Visa system expends my monthly energy use every time I pay for a coffee on my credit card? No, it does not

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

You can definitely buy weapons though

https://www.weforum.org/stories/2018/12/the-sale-of-illegal-weapons-on-the-dark-web-and-the-impact-on-international-security/

$80k /136 firearms globally a month! So an average tx of $600? I'm actually amazed how small that is. Firearms are much more portable than bombs, and unregistered unlicenced firearms sell at a premium, so this suggests that its a tiny market of small firearms. That report is over 5 years old tho, will have a dig and see if I can find more up to date figures.

For comparison, the average monthly volume for the US alone through official stores is $1.85 bn per month.

 

[pbsmooth]

another ludicrous distraction from the bitcoin crew. the same financial companies you're desperate to pretend are somehow responsible for genocide... are also invested in crypto.

we still don't have any reason for bitcoin to exist, despite the sharing of word salads about god.

 

[Saul Goodman]

I wonder would Bitcoin still be a thing if Bitcoin bores had to run in a hamster wheel to generate the energy required for their pyramid scam.

 

[kabbes]

I wonder would Bitcoin still be a thing if Bitcoin bores had to run in a hamster wheel to generate the energy required for their pyramid scam.

Well no, because they’d be dead

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

Yes, the worldwide finance system enables genocide. And to the extent that bitcoin ever becomes part of that system (it is to laugh), it will become part of that genocide too. There’s nothing special about Bitcoin in that sense.

This genocide was funded by the US, who literally printed dollars out of thin air. That isn't possible with bitcoin.
If you are interested in the role of bitcoin for military uses tho, you should read Softwar by Jason Lowery

No, it is not my energy expenditure per month across the system. It is my energy expenditure per month for every single Bitcoin transaction. You think that the Visa system expends my monthly energy use every time I pay for a coffee on my credit card? No, it does not

But a bitcoin transaction doesnt consume any energy at all. The energy consumption of the bitcoin network is the same regardless of the number of transactions that are contained within a block. The energy consumption is the same whether the block is full or empty.

 

[kabbes]

But a bitcoin transaction doesnt consume any energy at all. The energy consumption of the bitcoin network is the same regardless of the number of transactions that are contained within a block. The energy consumption is the same whether the block is full or empty.

This is insane levels of self-deception. It’s like arguing that air travel has no environmental cost because the aeroplane is flying anyway

 

[NoXion]

Not a single bomb was bought by bitcoin.

Oh don't worry, the scum of the Earth have found ways to make use of it. Scammers fucking love crypto, I've received at least two emails attempting to blackmail me and demanding crypto to prevent my supposedly awful browsing habits from being leaked.

But a bitcoin transaction doesnt consume any energy at all. The energy consumption of the bitcoin network is the same regardless of the number of transactions that are contained within a block. The energy consumption is the same whether the block is full or empty.

You know that's worse, right? It means crypto consumes prodigious amounts of energy even when it isn't being used.

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

I wonder would Bitcoin still be a thing if Bitcoin bores had to run in a hamster wheel to generate the energy required for their pyramid scam.

Back in the day there was an exercise bike that was hooked up to a miner. So yes.

another ludicrous distraction from the bitcoin crew. the same financial companies you're desperate to pretend are somehow responsible for genocide... are also invested in crypto.

Of course they fucking are. Blackrock has a fucktonne of bitcoin through its ETF, which is another damn good reason to get some, every satoshi you own cannot be owned by the blackrocks of this world...and of course remember the mantra of "not your keys, not your coins" and dont get caught up in shady "financial instruments" that pretend that you own bitcoin but hold onto the private keys.

However, the gaza genocide cost $67 billion. Ignoring market effects of selling off that amount of bitcoin at once and assuming price stability, thats over 1 million bitcoin - 1/21th of the entire supply. The only person capable of funding that genocide through bitcoin is satoshi themself.

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

This is insane levels of self-deception. It’s like arguing that air travel has no environmental cost because the aeroplane is flying anyway

If the energy consumption of an aeroplane was tied to how much a ticket cost, then it would be an accurate comparison.

The difficulty of the bitcoin network adjusts based on the amount of energy that is put into it. At the moment, it costs approx $88k in energy to mine 1 btc, if the price of bitcoin drops below $88k, eventually miners will turn off their rigs, the difficulty adjustment will then kick in and it will become easier to mine bitcoin, so the cost of mining one bitcoin will fall.

The energy consumption of bitcoin is a direct function of its fiat price and the cost of energy, which is why miners are consistantly looking for cheaper sources of energy and more efficient mining. This is a feature not a bug, it is the entire basis of proof of work, which transmutes energy into money.

 

[Saul Goodman]

But a bitcoin transaction doesnt consume any energy at all. The energy consumption of the bitcoin network is the same regardless of the number of transactions that are contained within a block. The energy consumption is the same whether the block is full or empty.

And we have another 100+ years of mining until all of these sudoku puzzles are solved. And more electricity will have been used on this worthless shite than has been used by mankind since the first light bulb was invented.

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

And we have another 100+ years of mining until all of these sudoku puzzles are solved. And more electricity will have been used on this worthless shite than has been used by mankind since the first light bulb was invented.

It wont suddenly end when the block rewards stop, everyone who does a tx pays some fees to the miners, in 100 years those fees will be the primary reward.

Energy is not scarce, energy is abundant, but we harness it poorly - bitcoin incentivises the efficient conversion of natural energy into electrical energy and is the only way we will ever achieve a Type I civilisation.

 

[Saul Goodman]

It wont suddenly end when the block rewards stop, everyone who does a tx pays some fees to the miners, in 100 years those fees will be the primary reward.

Energy is not scarce, energy is abundant, but we harness it poorly - bitcoin incentivises the efficient conversion of natural energy into electrical energy and is the only way we will ever achieve a Type I civilisation.

Ah, right, so Bitcoiners are going to save the world by gratuitously wasting vast quantities of energy, as this will force people to generate more energy.
That makes perfect sense. Along the same lines as "murdering people is good, because it'll force people to try to find a way to prevent you from murdering people."

 

[Crispy]

Just complete moral and intellectual bankruptcy.

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

Ah, right, so Bitcoiners are going to save the world by gratuitously wasting vast quantities of energy, as this will force people to generate more energy.
That makes perfect sense. Along the same lines as "murdering people is good, because it'll force people to try to find a way to prevent you from murdering people."

How much energy is involved in the fiat system?

Ignore the wars, the genocides, the neo-colonialism and just look at the infrastructure. How many buildings do banks have, whats their computing energy consumption, the lights, heating. All that energy not only needs to be produced but also transported, and still about 15% of people, mostly women, are still unbanked and are unable to get access to basic banking services.

We need to harness more energy, we are nowhere even close to capturing planetary energy, and we have raided the stored energy of the past - oil is finite - at some point it will run out, yet our energy needs are continually increasing. Bitcoin directly incentivises capturing hard to harness energy and developing new energy capture technology.

Bitcoin is our way of escaping a new dark age.

 

[magneze]

Hang on. I thought there was something special about bitcoin usage? Using more energy isn't actually a reason to use a currency.

"I buy all my stuff in dollars because my favourite colour is green"

 

[Saul Goodman]

How much energy is involved in the fiat system?

Ignore the wars, the genocides, the neo-colonialism and just look at the infrastructure. How many buildings do banks have, whats their computing energy consumption, the lights, heating.

Are you seriously going to compare the energy used to keep the world's financial systems powered to the energy used to play Blockchain Blowhard?

We need to harness more energy, we are nowhere even close to capturing planetary energy, and we have raided the stored energy of the past - oil is finite - at some point it will run out, yet our energy needs are continually increasing. Bitcoin directly incentivises capturing hard to harness energy and developing new energy capture technology.

Bitcoin is our way of escaping a new dark age.

So my eyes weren't deceiving me, and you are actually advocating squandering the earth's energy reserves, because it'll mean we'll have to find alternative power sources if we wish to survive? You're a fucking genius! And if we burn down all the forests, we'll have even more problems to solve. Hell, we might even find a cure for Ebola, if we infect enough people with it.

 

[BristolEcho]

I'm trying to get people to understand bitcoin. There is an incredible amount of misinformation out there because most people only look at bitcoin and see the fiat price it can be exchanged for, when that is the least interesting thing about bitcoin. Bitcoin is not a get rich quick scheme, its an entire economic and political revolution. The closest thing I can compare it with is the Copernican revolution (... and Copernicus himself would have been a fan, given the contents of Monetae Cudendae Ratio)

This is the bit that I am confused about.

How do you feel the political revolution element of it is going? Do you only believe in bitcoin, or is it crypto in general?

By the way did you post on Reddit that you like coming on here to troll about bitcoin? I was reading some old bitcoin posts and urban75 was mentioned by someone in this context.

 

[nogojones]

Bitcoin miners pay for it

So if I make a bitcoin transaction of 10c I fuck over the miners by $190.90?

 

[Maggot]

The fact that hundreds of thousands of corpses is not in your direct line of sight doesn't absolve you from the fact that your monetary system enabled a genocide.

Of course the expenditure of energy on the blockchain is more than your household's monthly use - its an international global money system used by millions on every continent ffs.

Your monetary system? It's yours as much as everyone else's. Unless you have found a way to not use normal currency.

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

Are you seriously going to compare the energy used to keep the world's financial systems powered to the energy used to play Blockchain Blowhard?

There are two financial systems, one run by governments, and primarily controlled by the US and its oligarchs, and the other permissionless, decentralised, borderless neutral one. The second uses far less energy than the first.

So my eyes weren't deceiving me, and you are actually advocating squandering the earth's energy reserves, because it'll mean we'll have to find alternative power sources if we wish to survive? You're a fucking genius! And if we burn down all the forests, we'll have even more problems to solve. Hell, we might even find a cure for Ebola, if we infect enough people with it.

Bitcoin mining is the greenest industry bar none. This is not a coincidence, but a function of bitcoin because renewable and waste energy is and will always be far cheaper to generate energy from than fossil fuel.

There isnt a fixed amount of energy on earth and when that gets used up, the lights go out. 44 quadrillion (4.4 x 10^16) watts of energy hits the earth from the sun every day, thats a hundreds of thousands multiple of current global energy usage, but because electricity is so difficult to transport, fossil fuels are preferred so that energy can be generated near to industrial and residential areas.

How do you feel the political revolution element of it is going? Do you only believe in bitcoin, or is it crypto in general?

Its early days, bitcoin is less than 16 years old, but it is definitely making an impact. particularly in the renewables development section.

I'm not a bitcoin maxi, I do dabble in crypto, but I am bitcoin first. The way I see it is that all the value captured in crypto is essentially bitcoin value and other chains - like ethereum, cosmos, solana etc are testnets. Eventually their functionality will be absorbed by bitcoin but bitcoin needs to be super secure, so progress on novel usecases is slow and carefully checked, whereas crypto can move fast and break things, try random experiments (eg smart contracts, NFTs, AI Agents) and see how they work out.

Bitcoin is solid tech, extremely robust and its relatively straightforward, you can set up a wallet and start transacting on chain within minutes.
Crypto is experimental, buggy, complex and difficult to properly understand. The mistake that many people make is that they jump right into crypto without understanding bitcoin, because crypto has marketing, VC funding, foundations, governance etc. encouraging them to. Bitcoin has none of that.

By the way did you post on Reddit that you like coming on here to troll about bitcoin? I was reading some old bitcoin posts and urban75 was mentioned by someone in this context.

I dont troll about bitcoin (well maybe occasionally when kabbes really pisses me off), what I say is sincere, so no I cant imagine that would be me, I dont use reddit all that much anyway.

So if I make a bitcoin transaction of 10c I fuck over the miners by $190.90?

No. Again, it doesnt work like that.

Your monetary system? It's yours as much as everyone else's. Unless you have found a way to not use normal currency.

Umm...328 pages in and you haven't worked out that I've found a way not to use fiat?

I mean yeah, I do still have a bank account after a short lived experiment in 2017 when I tried to go full bitcoin and had a massive row with my electricity supplier who wouldnt accept bitcoin payments (they did in the end, but fuck me that was a nightmare) and decided that the world was not quite ready... and I do keep some cash, but fiat is definitely not my monetary system. I get rid of fiat as quickly as I can tbh.

 

[kabbes]

Bitcoin from the beginning was always an economic weapon of the ultra-right libertarians and has remained so. That’s why the likes of Musk are so into it.