Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[toggle]

Her habit of throwing that shit about like confetti does any real cause she attaches herself to a massive disservice.cause if the place people here about it is from her, they approach it with disbelief.

but that women who stick their head above the parapet online get an astounding amount of abuse, most of it highly gendered, some of it including detailed rape fantasies, some of it seeking to find out where the woman lives, all that shit doesn't become false because laurie says that happens to her.

personally, i'd rather be facing an online accusation of an -ism than a detailed rape fantasy of what my (and my kids) evening will be like, by someone who has made it clear they are at the very least searching for my home address. the behaviour of laurie, while unpleasant is in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM a comparable level of threat.

 

[andysays]

last time I discussed that, on this thread, the idea that Laurie had daily threats of rape was doubted.

she is a pita, throws accusation about anyone who disagrees with her, but if she's not getting daily rape threats, then she is probably the only woman with a prominent feminist profile that isn't getting that level of abuse.

I don't remember the specifics of that.

I think it's understandable, if unfortunate, if some people do doubt some of LP's unsubstantiated claims, given her proven record of exaggeration and distortion. Doubting a specific claim of one person doesn't have to equate with doubting the general point you're making.

 

[toggle]

I don't remember the specifics of that.

I think it's understandable, if unfortunate, if some people do doubt some of LP's unsubstantiated claims, given her proven record of exaggeration and distortion. Doubting a specific claim of one person doesn't have to equate with doubting the general point you're making.

Definitely not defending her shit scattering. but if there's one thing she has said that I do believe, it is on that issue.

 

[andysays]

...she is a pita...

Not that it's of huge importance, but what's a pita?

 

[_angel_]

Not that it's of huge importance, but what's a pita?

pain in the arse

 

[toggle]

Not that it's of huge importance, but what's a pita?

pain in the arse.

 

[andysays]

Shocking lack of orthographic correctness here.

Capitals for acronyms, always

 

[andysays]

Falsely accusing people of misogyny, racism and (the worst of the lot especially considering the circumstances) rape apologism, is pretty bad too. Pretty bad.

Pretty bad, but not really comparable

 

[rekil]

but that women who stick their head above the parapet online get an astounding amount of abuse, most of it highly gendered, some of it including detailed rape fantasies, some of it seeking to find out where the woman lives, all that shit doesn't become false because laurie says that happens to her.

personally, i'd rather be facing an online accusation of an -ism than a detailed rape fantasy of what my (and my kids) evening will be like, by someone who has made it clear they are at the very least searching for my home address. the behaviour of laurie, while unpleasant is in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM a comparable level of threat.

You think that being on the end of false accusations doesn't have real world consequences? Righto. Ask SpineyNorman about what he had to deal with after Ms.Penny very publicly called him a racist. Did I say that threats and accusations are comparable? Nope. Both are intended to have different effects. Is that not obvious?

This 'head above the parapet' rubbish has to stop really.

 

[rekil]

Pretty bad, but not really comparable

Not you as well. FFS.

 

[Firky]

Not this shit again.

 

[toggle]

You think that being on the end of false accusations doesn't have real world consequences? Righto. Ask SpineyNorman about what he had to deal with after Ms.Penny very publicly called him a racist. Did I say that threats and accusations are comparable? Nope. Both are intended to have different effects. Is that not obvious?

This 'head above the parapet' rubbish has to stop really.

it's the abuse of women that needs to stop.

 

[andysays]

You think that being on the end of false accusations doesn't have real world consequences? Righto. Ask SpineyNorman about what he had to deal with after Ms.Penny very publicly called him a racist. Did I say that threats and accusations are comparable? Nope. Both are intended to have different effects. Is that not obvious?

This 'head above the parapet' rubbish has to stop really.

Not you as well. FFS.

You didn't say that, but bringing it up at that moment does unfortunately suggest that you're making some sort of comparison, even if that wasn't your intention.

And no one, as far as I can see, is suggesting that being on the end of false accusations doesn't have real world consequences.

We can condemn LP for making the accusations against Spiney or anyone else, and also condemn OldHolborn for the shit he came out with referring to her. There's no contradiction there, as sometimes seems to be suggested (not specifically by you, just in general)

 

[tufty79]

This 'head above the parapet' rubbish has to stop

what does that mean exactly, please?

 

[Belushi]

I've been accused of sexism and racism a few times over the years, not very nice when you think it isn't true. Like most men I've never been threatened with sexual violence; if I were and I thought it remotely possible it might happen I'd be bloody terrified.

 

[rekil]

it's the abuse of women that needs to stop.

Great post. Never thought of that. Are you going to answer my question please? Can false accusations have serious consequences?

If you want comparisons, I've posted on the Chile thread about what Vallejo, other spokespeople and schoolgirls have been enduring; home addresses being posted, strip searches, threats reminding them of what happened during the dictatorship and so on, and I've friends in Germany who've had to deal with nonsense from nazis for years.

 

[rekil]

what does that mean exactly, please?

We are not in Laurie's castle, put it that way.

 

[tufty79]

an actual comprehensible answer, please. i still don't get what you mean. can you put it in a 'plain english' way?

 

[andysays]

We are not in Laurie's castle, put it that way.

I knew LP was keen on seeing herself as the lead character in her own fantasy saga, but I never realised she'd acquired a castle to provide the setting...

 

[DotCommunist]

inherited it

 

[toggle]

Great post. Never thought of that. Are you going to answer my question please? Can false accusations have serious consequences?

If you want comparisons, I've posted on the Chile thread about what Vallejo, other spokespeople and schoolgirls have been enduring; home addresses being posted, strip searches, threats reminding them of what happened during the dictatorship and so on, and I've friends in Germany who've had to deal with nonsense from nazis for years.

and all designed to tell me to shut up, the abuse I complain about isn't important, because it's a 'woman's problem'.

 

[Bakunin]

If I might try summing up this aspect, I don't disbelieve Penny Dreadful when she claims regular harassment and threats as it does seem that there's plenty of that going around and particularly online where vermin feel safer owing to distance and anonymity. I wouldn't personally dispute that she gets a lot of abuse and threats.

The problem for her (and other high-profile women suffering similar harassment) is that she has acquired a reputation, a well-deserved one, for exaggeration, hyperbole, dishonesty, throwing insults and smears around like confetti, smearing legitimate critics rather than genuinely engaging with them, malicious mud-slinging when she thinks she'll get away with it and self-professed victimhood when mud-slinging wouldn't be as effective at silencing critics. That does a disservice to people enduring this kind of problem because they may find themselves tarred with the same brush, rightly or wrongly.

I don't doubt for a second that she gets a lot of vileness thrown her way, but her tendency towards hypocrisy, manipulation, dishonesty and hyperbole, coupled a certain amount of enmity from what seems like many Urbanites (well-earned enmity as far a I can see) means that when she does have a solid and legitimate point to make it isn't likely to get past a default reaction of seeing her as either exaggerating or outright lying even when she isn't.

To sum up, it seems like people are so used to her exaggerations and fabrications that their default, instinctive reaction is to assume she's either lying or blowing something up out of proportion. By all means, slate her for her many faults and call her out over exaggerations, fabrications, lies, smears and general bullshit. I have no problem with that as long as it's fair and accurate. But I wouldn't adopt a default position of assuming that absolutely everything she comes out with is automatically bullshit.

 

[toggle]

what does that mean exactly, please?

it means we need to be good girls and shut up, while the men get on with fixing the world. the attitudes behind it aren't very different to someone telling me to shut my mouth or they will fill it with their cock. it's still telling women to know their place.

 

[rekil]

and all designed to tell me to shut up, the abuse I complain about isn't important, because it's a 'woman's problem'.

Is asking you a question somehow a ruse to shut you up?

 

[andysays]

Great post. Never thought of that. Are you going to answer my question please? ...

Are you going to answer tufty79's?

what does that mean exactly, please?

I think, if you have an answer, it might help to explain the point you're trying to make, coz at the moment it's not really coming across very well...

 

[rekil]

an actual comprehensible answer, please. i still don't get what you mean. can you put it in a 'plain english' way?

She's on the wrong side, always has been, and she's a twat.

Laura's 'parapet' is the media/politics bubble, specifically the opinionmonger section, and it's rammed with men and women just like her, same background, same schools, the People Who Matter. Is that clearer? I am sorry for being a bit monosyllabic Shit day.

 

[tufty79]

She's on the wrong side, always has been, and she's a twat.

the wrong side of what?

 

[rekil]

the wrong side of what?

History!

 

[rekil]

I think, if you have an answer, it might help to explain the point you're trying to make, coz at the moment it's not really coming across very well...

toggle's strawmen aren't worth arguing with tbh.

it means we need to be good girls and shut up, while the men get on with fixing the world. the attitudes behind it aren't very different to someone telling me to shut my mouth or they will fill it with their cock. it's still telling women to know their place.

Drivel.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You think that being on the end of false accusations doesn't have real world consequences? Righto. Ask SpineyNorman about what he had to deal with after Ms.Penny very publicly called him a racist. Did I say that threats and accusations are comparable? Nope. Both are intended to have different effects. Is that not obvious?

This 'head above the parapet' rubbish has to stop really.

Thing is, what Penny does, as a female columnist (I was going to say "journalist", but I think people need to acknowledge the difference between the two a bit more) with a fair degree of "brand recognition" will invariably invite attack for expressing an opinion. Lynda Lee Potter (hardly a "Left-wing" columnist) took glee in her (pre-the days of e-mail) postbag of anonymous hate mail, as did Eve Pollard. To continue writing, knowing this, without changing the basic content of what is written to conform to what the "haters" want, is indeed "sticking one's head above the parapet", and such a thing is entirely divorced from anything to do with being the sort of eejit who chats shite and tries to deter criticism through throwing around accusations of racism and misogyny. You can be "sticking your head above the parapet" as a female columnist while still being a bit of a fuckwit who chucks around accusations of racism at critics, and who smarms up to Yanks who're over-fond of pubescent females.