Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[Sue]

Tufty, you asked me for some solidarity, and as a fellow survivor of rape who has been disbelieved and shamed for it- including on this thread- I tried to show it, and to assure you that I don't agree with my article about my own experience being used to shame others into silence. The offer is still open. I hope you're as ok as you can be right now.

Hole, stop digging? Just a thought.

 

[tufty79]

also, lauriepenny

want to show some proper solidarity and write an article about the shit that's happened to me?
actually, i retract that/quote]

sorry, sarcastic font doesn't exist on this board yet.
i don't want someone with your journalistic skills on my side. thanks though.

 

[lauriepenny]

And I do think about the impact of everything I write. I can't be responsible for sexist pigs deliberately misinterpreting it, but I can tell you I'm sorry that happened, and if there's anything I can do to help, I will. Even though you hate me. Solidarity has to mean something.

 

[lauriepenny]

Tufty, I promise I won't write about this - I would never write on something so sensitive without permission. You have my word.

 

[YouSir]

just take this opportunity to think about the impact that *every. thing. you. write* has on people.
for once in your un/lucky little life.

ta.

Tufty, you asked me for some solidarity, and as a fellow survivor of rape who has been disbelieved and shamed for it- including on this thread- I tried to show it, and to assure you that I don't agree with my article about my own experience being used to shame others into silence. The offer is still open. I hope you're as ok as you can be right now.

In this instance I'd say you're the one who should be listening to Tufty, whose advice would be well applied to everything you write and might make it seem less like like navel gazing self indulgence. DotCommunist's post earlier would be a good one to think on too imo.

 

[DotCommunist]

you know what, I just typed near on 500 words trying to explain, but whats the fucking point. She won't respond

 

[tufty79]

The reason I didn't report was I was convinced I wouldn't be believed - and it took a while for me to understand that what happened to me was rape. And the reason I thought that was because of people with attitudes like whatever sexist dickhead told you this.

my rapist totalyl isolated me from my support network at the time (and so did they, with thier own special interpretations of consent, to some extent). they tried to intellectualise the whole thing to convince me that i did really give consent, i just didn't remember it. or verbalise it. it was implied by my existing relationship with him. i carried on relying on him for 'support' for about six weeks after. and crumbled and reported him about six weeks/a month after it happened. (edited: sorry, make that two months)

so yeah.

as for the 'sexist dickhead' amd his mates, he's lauded by you and The Left for speaking out about the sexual abuse of women by undercover cops. you've publicly gushed over his/your mates' Activist actions as defining them as 'good people'. nice choice of friends and targetted approval there, laurie.

 

[andysays]

And I do think about the impact of everything I write. I can't be responsible for sexist pigs deliberately misinterpreting it, but I can tell you I'm sorry that happened, and if there's anything I can do to help, I will. Even though you hate me. Solidarity has to mean something.

Solidarity does mean something, even in the bear pit of U75. Many of those here have already provided far more solidarity and support to tufty79 than you're ever likely to do.

We're like the upper-middle-class privilege networks that you belong to in that regard - we look after our own. You're emphatically not one of us, and no one's fooled

 

[lauriepenny]

YouSir- I have listened to Tufty, and as I said I do think about the impact of everything I write. I do not claim to speak on behalf of the working-class and never have. If you're angry at the way the media likes to frame the debate in those terms, setting up talking-heads rather than allowing working-class people space to speak for themselves in the mainstream press, I understand, but I hardly think I'm the right target for that rage.

 

[DotCommunist]

as a fellow survivor of rape who has been disbelieved and shamed for it- including on this thread-

people on here applauded it as your most honest piece and believed you.

edited out a 'most' from the start of my initial sentence. Nobody doubted you here

 

[tufty79]

Solidarity does mean something, even in the bear pit of U75. Many of those here have already provided far more solidarity and support to tufty79 than you're ever likely to do.

fucking bang on.
urban solidarity vs laurie penny's lolidarity

i'm here all week. try the fish. i accept no responsibility if it's bile-flavoured.

 

[lauriepenny]

'as for the 'sexist dickhead' amd his mates, he's lauded by you and The Left for speaking out about the sexual abuse of women by undercover cops. you've publicly gushed over his/your mates' Activist actions as defining them as 'good people'. nice choice of friends and targetted approval there, laurie.'

I still don't know who this is, but if there's someone in my networks who is an abuser and hasn't been called to account for it, I'd like to put that right. Obviously you're not under any obligation to tell me, but if you want to, and if you want to let me know what action you think needs to be taken, you have my assurance of complete confidence.

 

[YouSir]

YouSir- I have listened to Tufty, and as I said I do think about the impact of everything I write. I do not claim to speak on behalf of the working-class and never have. If you're angry at the way the media likes to frame the debate in those terms, setting up talking-heads rather than allowing working-class people space to speak for themselves in the mainstream press, I understand, but I hardly think I'm the right target for that rage.

Well that's deeply patronising. And I'm not sure I can be arsed to explain why.

 

[YouSir]

Well that's deeply patronising. And I'm not sure I can be arsed to explain why.

Actually, it's blatantly obvious why it's patronising and I can't imagine you're so thoughtless or stupid as to not realise why. But thanks for negating all my criticism of you and your work by alluding to my misled rage and offering up the revelation that the mainstream media doesn't represent working class people.

 

[andysays]

... If you're angry at the way the media likes to frame the debate in those terms, setting up talking-heads rather than allowing working-class people space to speak for themselves in the mainstream press, I understand, but I hardly think I'm the right target for that rage.

To the extent that you are happy to step into that framework (some might even say elbow your way in...) to build your faux-radical profile you are absolutely a valid target for that rage.

 

[killer b]

If you're angry at the way the media likes to frame the debate in those terms, setting up talking-heads rather than allowing working-class people space to speak for themselves in the mainstream press, I understand, but I hardly think I'm the right target for that rage.

you are the media ffs. you aren't outside of this shit y'know.

 

[killer b]

lol. snap, andy.

 

[tufty79]

a song for laurie (are you doing the vocals? ):



(if you dare try and interpret this as an online threat to your safety, or as mysogyny, or sexist hating, i will be a bit pissed off. it's my version of gallows humour. i wish you no harm, but i think you need to take a fucking hard look at yourself, and stop digging your own lexical metaphorical grave)

 

[andysays]

i'm here all week. try the fish. i accept no responsibility if it's bile-flavoured.

Just a green salad for me, in that case

 

[lauriepenny]

See, this is what happens when I try to engage here- I can expect everything I say to be misconstrued and interpreted in the worst possible light. I only came on to set some facts straight and tell you how triggering it is to be told I've lied about my mental health history. Nobody has had the guts to apologise for that or for the rape apologism and stalkery behavior on this thread that, in my opinion, negates any valid criticism you might have to offer me.

Forgive me, I thought a request that I be treated with a bit of human understanding might be met with something other than insults. Clearly I was wrong.

 

[cesare]

Tufty- I'm shocked to hear your rapist has been citing my work. I'm not sure I understand what you're saying happened- did they use the article to say you should or shouldn't name him? Either way, of course they are wrong- it should never a rape victim's duty to name or not name their attacker. Ironically, after that article was posted I got people telling me that my choice not to name the man involved was wrong- and people, including people on this thread, telling me I'd made it all up. I found that hugely triggering as I'm sure you understand.

And I'm sorry to hear you've been unwell. I know how that goes. I hope you're feeling better and receiving the treatment you need.

I find it hard to believe that friends of mine could have acted as you say- but then almost everyone DOES find it hard to believe, and that's how rape culture continues. If there's anything I can do to help, feel free to email me in total confidence- I will not share anything you write to me unless you specifically ask me to.

Name names, please. I don't recall *anyone* on this thread suggesting you were lying about being raped.

 

[cesare]

See, this is what happens when I try to engage here- I can expect everything I say to be misconstrued and interpreted in the worst possible light. I only came on to set some facts straight and tell you how triggering it is to be told I've lied about my mental health history. Nobody has had the guts to apologise for that or for the rape apologism and stalkery behavior on this thread that, in my opinion, negates any valid criticism you might have to offer me.

Forgive me, I thought a request that I be treated with a bit of human understanding might be met with something other than insults. Clearly I was wrong.

Specifics as to "rape apologism" on this thread, please.

 

[tufty79]

i apologise for the rape apologism on this page, and the stalkery behaviour.
i would also appreciate you pointing out where this has happened, because frankly i cba to find it myself. i'm not supporting it, just to clarify. i just haven't seen much beyond criticising the stuff you put out in the public sphere.

 

[lauriepenny]

Tufty, I have tried to engage with kindness and solidarity and you've responded with hate. I just don't understand how you can have so little empthy. I'm finding your behavior deeply triggering. I hope you don't do this to anyone else.

 

[tufty79]

jesus fucking christ.

 

[lauriepenny]

Well, I accept your apology- although none of that was your fault, Tufty.

 

[Firky]

Tufty- I'm shocked to hear your rapist has been citing my work. I'm not sure I understand what you're saying happened- did they use the article to say you should or shouldn't name him? Either way, of course they are wrong- it should never a rape victim's duty to name or not name their attacker. Ironically, after that article was posted I got people telling me that my choice not to name the man involved was wrong- and people, including people on this thread, telling me I'd made it all up. I found that hugely triggering as I'm sure you understand.

And I'm sorry to hear you've been unwell. I know how that goes. I hope you're feeling better and receiving the treatment you need.

I find it hard to believe that friends of mine could have acted as you say- but then almost everyone DOES find it hard to believe, and that's how rape culture continues. If there's anything I can do to help, feel free to email me in total confidence- I will not share anything you write to me unless you specifically ask me to.

fuck off you insincere careerist cow cunt.

Retort of the year.

 

[andysays]

See, this is what happens when I try to engage here- I can expect everything I say to be misconstrued and interpreted in the worst possible light. I only came on to set some facts straight and tell you how triggering it is to be told I've lied about my mental health history. Nobody has had the guts to apologise for that or for the rape apologism and stalkery behavior on this thread that, in my opinion, negates any valid criticism you might have to offer me.

Forgive me, I thought a request that I be treated with a bit of human understanding might be met with something other than insults. Clearly I was wrong.

Since I haven't suggested that you've lied about your MH history (in fact if you scroll back a bit you'll see I actually argued against that) or engaged in any rape apologism or in any particularly stalkery behaviour, I'm not offering any apologies for it.

If some have done some or all of those things, does that mean we're all of us guilty and that any and all criticism posted here is simply negated? Piss poor attempt to wriggle out

 

[YouSir]

jesus fucking christ.

Seconded.

 

[lauriepenny]

I didn't see your last post before I wrote my next-to-last one