Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[rekil]

I've tried in good faith to engage; you'd be hard-pressed to find another columnist who would- and I regret ever doing so.

 

[SpineyNorman]

There have been a couple of points which are, if not legitimate criticism, then at least points that it's valid for me to address and think about. Being committed to intersectionality means I do have to think about how my background might affect what I write, for example. The thing is, I knew all that already, and if I want honest unbiased critique, I look for it elsewhere.

I don't expect to find useful critique on this thread because it's simply full of lies, distortions and people determined to think the worst of me- just as I wouldn't ask my most ardent fans to offer me vital critique on a piece, because I know they'd be biased.

Tufty, how you expect to change my mind whilst calling me things like an 'exploitative lying shit' is beyond me. If you actually want me to pay attention to you, treat me like a human being and don't start with baseless insults.

I've got a question too Laurie. If you disagree with, say, black or trans activists about their politics you 'check your privilege'. But when you're disagreeing with (and often lying about and slandering) the people on this thread you think it's perfectly OK to tell Malcolm Harris that there are 'plenty of better working class activists' as if you're the arbiter of what a working class activist should be. Why don't you ever check your class privilege?

It seems like there are double standards at play here and when we're talking about the greatest privilege of all, class, the point at which, to use your own language, all other forms of oppression 'intersect' and a privilege you happen to enjoy you get to throw all that stuff out of the window.

It stinks, when we spoke on the phone I got the impression that you hadn't really thought too much about the effect your actions had on me, the other poster concerned and the wider Urban75 community, that you were just feeling like you were under attack and lashed out in an unthinking way. I felt sorry for you despite the trouble you caused me and my family and for a time tried to defend you and to open up a space for you to come onto this thread so we could all engage in a civil manner.

I regret that now. Your actions since suggest to me that none of it is ill-considered. It's all carefully calculated isn't it? You're the worst of the commentariat by a mile. I've made myself unpopular on here before defending people like Owen Jones and Ellie May O'Hagan but I'm fucked if I'm going to do it for you.

 

[SpineyNorman]

YouSir- I have listened to Tufty, and as I said I do think about the impact of everything I write. I do not claim to speak on behalf of the working-class and never have. If you're angry at the way the media likes to frame the debate in those terms, setting up talking-heads rather than allowing working-class people space to speak for themselves in the mainstream press, I understand, but I hardly think I'm the right target for that rage.

You to Malcolm Harris: Ignore them 'babe' there's loads of better working class activists.

Because of course you're the ones who get to decide who's better, right?

Get to fuck.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I'm getting nowhere with this. You're probably decent people individually, but together you behave like a pack of playground bullies, and your lack of empathy is shocking. I've tried in good faith to engage; you'd be hard-pressed to find another columnist who would- and I regret ever doing so.

'I decide, in the spirit of charity, to bless you smelly Urban proles with my presence and you have the cheek to treat me in the same way you would a normal person who pulled the shit I've pulled'

This is Urban - if we don't like someone's work we'll say so without sugar coating it. And if you don't believe me take a look here: http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...ion-of-the-future.270729/page-6#post-10053478

 

[SpineyNorman]

Nobody has had the guts to apologise for that or for the rape apologism and stalkery behavior on this thread that, in my opinion, negates any valid criticism you might have to offer me.

The stalkery part is more subjective and I can see where that impression may come from - but where is the rape apologism?

Don't you realise that you devalue such terms when you make these ludicrous accusations? Unless of course you'd like to point this 'rape apologism' out to the rest of us.

[goes away to have a fag and calm down before I do a whole page of posts without anyone else posting and make myself look like an obsessive]

 

[Steel Icarus]

I'm just surprised that anyone is still surprised by the depths of hackery she's willing to mine.

 

[rekil]

The stalkery part is more subjective

It's counter-stalkery if anything. Surely people here have a right to have as much info as possible (within reason) about the class, character and motivation of the shit shovelling chancers whose job is to follow them about and live through them.

 

[Sue]

There has been no rape apologism on this thread. None. Let's get that straight shall we?

lauriepenny did an interview with notoriously sexist and rightwing springer group paper Die Welt last year. The springer group has a long history of hostility to the German left and they still don't accept adverts for Die Linke, KPD, DKP etc, an important issue with the election approaching. They have attacked friends of mine directly. Does Laurie know or care about any of this? No, having these cunts help to build her personal brand is "exciting". #solidarity how are ya.

Eta: Oh has she fucked off already? Well I was going to post that anyway. I didn't expect a driveby.

One of the things that specially annoys me is how shit her grasp of politics is and that she doesn't even seem to realise this.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Ni olvido ni perdon.

Was gonna ask lauriepenny to use her posh school skillz and translate this Latin/foreign for me then I remembered google translate and found that it means, 'Neither forgiveness nor oblivion.'

To which it seems apt to add:

...but intersectional feminism.

 

[J Ed]

Fuck those who fight violence with violence*

*excepting NATO drone strikes in Libya etc

 

[rekil]

Was gonna ask lauriepenny to use her posh school skillz and translate this Latin/foreign for me then I remembered google translate and found that it means, 'Neither forgiveness nor oblivion.'

To which it seems apt to add:

...but intersectional feminism.

Yeah, neither forget nor forgive, or variations thereof. I did the forrin to sound dead sophis.

One of the things that specially annoys me is how shit her grasp of politics is and that she doesn't even seem to realise this.

And her coming from the socialist and anarchist tradition and all.

 

[J Ed]

Was gonna ask lauriepenny to use her posh school skillz and translate this Latin/foreign for me then I remembered google translate and found that it means, 'Neither forgiveness nor oblivion.'

It's Spanish, basically what Anonymous say about neither forgiving nor forgetting.

 

[Steel Icarus]

She does this all the time - distancing herself from the very things that give her her privilege. So it's "the media" as though she's not climbing her way up it, the whole "giddy cos me - a revolutionary socialist - is talking to The Oxford Union" despite the fact if she hadn't gone to Oxford she'd not have got within a mile of the place, the perpetual crowbarring into any mention of her public school education of how she only went cos she was made to, etc etc etc. The flipside of this is the royal "we" when referring to the poor, the jobless, the young disenfranchised, etc. This is the dishonesty I despise in her. It's far more insidious than any misremembered details about who was there at a party.

 

[Sue]

Yeah, neither forget nor forgive, or variations thereof. I did the forrin to sound dead sophis.


And her coming from the socialist and anarchist tradition and all.

You so need to check your privilege on the language skills bit. Is it bad because it excludes people or good because it's foreign?

 

[rekil]

Malcolm cranking the anti-Columnist hate machine. It's ok when this wanker does it. His motivations are rather different.

 

[J Ed]

re: the above and the Chicago Teachers' Strike Malcolm Harris has a real hard on for people losing their jobs

 

[J Ed]

Malcolm Harris RTed this https://twitter.com/ohhgawdd/status/357711030878617600 fucking nonce

 

[Sue]

Malcolm cranking the anti-Columnist hate machine. It's ok when this wanker does it. His motivations are rather different.

View attachment 37082

He has experienced the hunger obviously. (Suspect even I could waste him in seconds and I haven't hit anyone since about 1982.)

 

[ViolentPanda]

sorry for stealing your thunder, delroy. obviously only rapedgirls deserve responses. which, tbh, i find pretty disgusting.
(and i apologise that i'm not typing this on teh typewriter of invisible posts. i really *am* going to get off the internet before i do any more damage)

What damage? You mean to Ms. Penny's psyche? If most of us were "triggered" quite as easily as she implied earlier, I for one would excrete copious quantities of foul-smelling watery stools and turn into a catatonic mess every time I heard a banger go off!
And I'd far rather read your posts than the "poor me" stuff Ms. Penny sprays around every time she's here.

 

[ViolentPanda]

She has no interest in a considered response, Delroy. It's just more of the same - unsubstantiated smear and scarper.

"Spray and pray".

 

[tufty79]

What damage? You mean to Ms. Penny's psyche?

no, mine

If most of us were "triggered" quite as easily as she implied earlier

i am i almost eviscerated my neighbour when he walked up behind me and said 'boo' the other night. )

I for one would excrete copious quantities of foul-smelling watery stools and turn into a catatonic mess every time I heard a banger go off!

i have been planning to learn the ways of the ladybird (squirts toxic shit out of its knees when threatened) or the turkey vulture (can spontaneously vomit nasty shit all over its predators). or work out how to cope with the current levels of furious, and current self-triggeriness (see: posting on this thread without counting to five thousand before hitting 'reply'). everything is a bit raw/roar at the minute.

lauriepenny, i apologise for misdirecting *some* of my anger towards you. i didn't mean that you personally contributed towards what happened to me. just that in my head, i'll always have a weird link between you and it. or maybe not, it's clearly something i need to work on though.
and it wasn't fair of me to be so abusive to you.

oddly enough, i was watching this last night, under a fluffy blanket, and going 'fuck. yes.' i may as well try not to be a hypocrite.
http://www.makers.com/eve-ensler/moments/having-each-others-backs

fuck it, consider it an olive branch. and fingers crossed it'll get us out of our mutually-triggering-loop.
and thank you for the offer of support. i do appreciate that you mean well, buti have more relevant and appropriate support at the minute (and thank you to the people on here who helped me with the practical shit, as well as the urbans who have been patient and gentle with my mounting-horror-revelations and shrieking self-editing).

 

[Firky]

I could quite happily kick Harris in the teeth. Fucking sex pest. I wouldn't trust him with an animal let alone a lass.

 

[DotCommunist]

'what are you doing to those bicycle seats!'

another visit by laurrie eh. Nobody got called a racist this time though. Is this progress?

 

[cesare]

'what are you doing to those bicycle seats!'

another visit by laurrie eh. Nobody got called a racist this time though. Is this progress?

It's not progress to (a) not unreservedly withdraw claims of racism and sexism; and then (b) compound previous smears with accusations of rape apologism, alleging that posters didn't believe her rape account, and (c) finally accusing tufty of "deeply triggering" behaviour in a transparent attempt to switch blame.

 

[SpineyNorman]

It's counter-stalkery if anything. Surely people here have a right to have as much info as possible about the class, character and motivation of the shit shovelling chancers whose job is to follow them about and live through them.

I agree - but whereas it would be possible - though disingenuous - to paint some of that stuff as stalkery, there is absolutely nothing on here that she could claim is rape apologism. When Laurie's rape piece came up on here was one of the few times when we all seem to agree - and the consensus was that the piece was excellent and that she deserved sympathy over the ordeal it described.

Kind of like when someone's nicked a bottle of ribena and some fags and you catch them with the fags still in their pocket and red/purple stains around their lips. You know you've got them nailed on the fags so even though you know they nicked the ribena too you don't bother going after them for it cos the fags prove they're a thief anyway.

Shit similes ftw

 

[SpineyNorman]

Was gonna ask lauriepenny to use her posh school skillz and translate this Latin/foreign for me then I remembered google translate and found that it means, 'Neither forgiveness nor oblivion.'

To which it seems apt to add:

...but intersectional feminism.

Nobody noticed my 'neither Washington nor Moscow' reference

Well, either that or it just wasn't funny

 

[love detective]

It's not progress to (a) not unreservedly withdraw claims of racism and sexism; and then (b) compound previous smears with accusations of rape apologism, alleging that posters didn't believe her rape account, and finally accusing tufty of "deeply triggering" behaviour in a transparent attempt to switch blame.

as bad as (a) and (b) were they never surprised me in the slightest given her track record, (c) on the other hand was something I was completely stunned by

a woman bravely speaks out about being raped by someone who not only lauds, but is lauded by, laurie penny

Then, when this woman understandably sees through and wants nothing to do with the hollow offers of solidarity or 'help' from penny (a friend of the rapist in the eyes of the victim), she is then blamed for 'triggering' stuff in laurie

Unbelievable that laurie even attempts to turn the whole thing into her being the victim, and the actual victim of a rape is turned into the perpetrator of a transgression against laurie

 

[love detective]

Nobody noticed my 'neither Washington nor Moscow' reference

Well, either that or it just wasn't funny

I noticed it, hopefully that eliminates one of the potential scenarios

 

[SLK]

I remember coming on here when I saw her post that piece about being raped. I think I was the first to link to it and I tentatively suggested that it rings true and was admirable. To be fair, I expected some to say "fuck off" but only one person was equivocal about it (I can't remember whom, but they never said they didn't believe her) - the rest were wholly supportive of the article and believed LP.

I suspect the slur she threw out then was one she knew was a lie.

 

[love detective]

Ironically, after that article was posted I got people telling me that my choice not to name the man involved was wrong- and people, including people on this thread, telling me I'd made it all up

For the record, here are all the comments in response to Laurie's article about being raped - articul8 was the only person to have even suggested that some people may not believe her

Her story about being raped is incredible, despite it being by her.

Agreed, that's a bloody good piece of work.

And im not a usual Penny fan. She usually lacks the incisiveness and direction that this piece has.

As someone who has been raped myself, that's a very brave piece.

I can relate to what she's saying in the article - it took me a very long time to realise the fact that it was rape and that the person responsible was "a rapist" because they didn't behave like how "a rapist" behaves and I still have trouble thinking of them like that. It was a long time ago and I'm not traumatised or anything and am now in a relationship with somebody I love, but I can relate to all the emotions that she talks about.

Clearly she's struck a chord with peoples' experience, but Laurie's own track record for making shit up does her no favours at all when it comes to a piece like this

Respect to everyone brave enough to talk about their own experiences; and much as I dislike Penny I find it hard to believe she'd fabricate something like this.

She's gone up a lot in my estimation after writing that.

i don't think there is any reason to even think that she has made any of that up

It reads very, very differently from her "probably made up" stuff.

there are plenty of things to criticise laurie penny for, but that article and how she has responded to being raped are not on that list, IMO.

that was my thought exactly. the tone is very different.

It is really well written, but it is profoundly depressing in much the same way that hearing someone talk about how they lived through years of unreported domestic violence against them is.

I know she has made her feelings on reporting it known, but I really hope she changes her mind.