Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[Tom A]

in leeds the 'swp dissidents' as you put it jumped on the 'intersectionality'/'privilege' stuff as soon as they were out of the party. a sense of guilt?

It's very likely they are trying to, for right or wrong, boost their pro-feminist credentials, especially since it was because of sexism that they ended up leaving the party in the first place. I do know one ex-swppie in Leeds who isn't like that though.

 

[J Ed]

he makes some good points but isn't "cultural appropriation" how we got things like fish and chips for example?

http://www.theonion.com/articles/grad-student-deconstructs-takeout-menu,85/

Disturbingly I've seen actual postcolonial deconstructions of Lebanese takeaway menus in Washington DC, can't seem to find them atm but they are out there... it's a real thing.

BTW Seymour posted this to facebook and (I'm not sure whether he was being ironic or not) he claimed not to see the satire. Whether he did or not, a few of his followers earnestly set about agreeing with the article.

 

[Tom A]

yeah but when I see bagel factory at reading train station i don't think it's an example of oppression, i think it's a good thing when food/clothing becomes popular and people are interested in it coz it means they learn more about the culture

But then the hipsters come and ruin it for everyone

Which is probably why some many people get so hung-up on cultural appropriation, because all these "exotic" cultural symbols become like the Nike swoosh for middle-class hipsters. Annoying, but it's not the very worst thing to happen, and we all know what the posers look like, and they are readily mocked.

 

[Tom A]

yeah obviously that's out of order that's why i said if they're doing it to take the piss.

It's like how it's acceptable to use words like "gay" and "queer" to describe merely describe homosexuals, but not if they are used as an insult.

 

[Steel Icarus]

It's like how it's acceptable to use words like "gay" and "queer" to describe merely describe homosexuals, but not if they are used as an insult.

Is it? I thought "queer" was a much more charged sort of word.

 

[Idris2002]

Genuine question: has anyone seen the old GDR films with "Indians" as the heroes against the capitalist imperialist cowboys?

 

[J Ed]

Genuine question: has anyone seen the old GDR films with "Indians" as the heroes against the capitalist imperialist cowboys?

No but now I desperately want to

 

[Tom A]

Is it? I thought "queer" was a much more charged sort of word.

Relative to gay it is, but it's been reclaimed by homosexuals and in certain places, now in general usage - "queer theory" for example.

 

[phildwyer]

http://www.theonion.com/articles/grad-student-deconstructs-takeout-menu,85/

This is better:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/dick-cheney-vice-presidential-library-opens-in-pit,32278/

 

[frogwoman]

But then the hipsters come and ruin it for everyone

Which is probably why some many people get so hung-up on cultural appropriation, because all these "exotic" cultural symbols become like the Nike swoosh for middle-class hipsters. Annoying, but it's not the very worst thing to happen, and we all know what the posers look like, and they are readily mocked.

yeah it might be annoying, for like five minutes, then everyone forgets about it

when i think about racism, and think about the racism that i've had to put up with before, people buying bagels at reading train station or buying a doughnut from greggs or buying some fish and chips from the high street really isnt on my list of priorities. er yeah so different cultures get appropriated, my reaction is so what frankly, it's actually a good thing because it helps people to be less racist.

if they're taking the piss about it that's a different matter but it's pretty easy to tell based on context

 

[Steel Icarus]

Relative to gay it is, but it's been reclaimed by homosexuals and in certain places, now in general usage - "queer theory" for example.

Ah, right, I mean I've had the talk about being gay with my boy cos some kid called him a "faggot" which led to a conversation about how different people fancy different people etc but I'd never have used the word "queer"

 

[frogwoman]

Is it? I thought "queer" was a much more charged sort of word.

i find the word queer offensive because thats the sort of thing i was called at school by homophobic bullies but most of these types would think i was crazy for thinking that.

 

[andysays]

No but now I desperately want to

Me too. I've got to go out now but if someone can find a link, I'll look forward to watching later this evening...

 

[andysays]

yeah it might be annoying, for like five minutes, then everyone forgets about it

when i think about racism, and think about the racism that i've had to put up with before, people buying bagels at reading train station or buying a doughnut from greggs or buying some fish and chips from the high street really isnt on my list of priorities. er yeah so different cultures get appropriated, my reaction is so what frankly, it's actually a good thing because it helps people to be less racist.

if they're taking the piss about it that's a different matter but it's pretty easy to tell based on context

I suspect the average racist is unaware of the cultural origins of fish and chips, and wouldn't believe you if you told him where they came from.

Fish and chips are, to many, as English as antisemitism.

 

[frogwoman]

I suspect the average racist is unaware of the cultural origins of fish and chips, and wouldn't believe you if you told him where they came from.

Fish and chips are, to many, as English as antisemitism.

but it doesn't make people be anti-semitic. it's just a thing. and there's nothing to get upset about? it's not like they are taking the piss are they? and if they learnt about it then they might start to think a bit more differently about their views?

what im saying is i guess, even if that stuff doesnt do any good it doesnt do any harm. i would rather somebody with them views actually learnt about where its from than sat in a corner going on about chemtrails

maybe im just being naive but i really cant see whats wrong with it

 

[Tom A]

In many ways privilege theory can be really reactionary, causing people to condemn and denounce anything that isn't part of their way of thinking.

 

[andysays]

but it doesn't make people be anti-semitic. it's just a thing. and there's nothing to get upset about? it's not like they are taking the piss are they? and if they learnt about it then they might start to think a bit more differently about their views?

what im saying is i guess, even if that stuff doesnt do any good it doesnt do any harm. i would rather somebody with them views actually learnt about where its from than sat in a corner going on about chemtrails

maybe im just being naive but i really cant see whats wrong with it

Sorry, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with people eating foods that come from other cultures, but I think the idea that it helps to make them less racist is a little naive.

Maybe that's not what you're saying though,and I'm afraid I have to go out so don't have time to discuss it now

 

[frogwoman]

I used to be quite racist against muslims, but learning and thinking about for example where numbers originally came from and that sort of thing does help you to become more tolerant, or at least doesn't make you more racist, does it? Sorry if this sounds really stupid but i don't object to it in the way some people seem to. I dunno.

 

[frogwoman]

Sorry, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with people eating foods that come from other cultures, but I think the idea that it helps to make them less racist is a little naive.

Maybe that's not what you're saying though,and I'm afraid I have to go out so don't have time to discuss it now

yer i don't think that on it own helps, but i'm saying that it's not a bad tihng or worth getting upset about, and that that sort of stuff can be like a sign of cultural integration and that people are more accepted in society, rather than if everyone just regarded those types of foods as weird and avoided them along with the people that ate them.

 

[Tom A]

yer i don't think that on it own helps, but i'm saying that it's not a bad tihng or worth getting upset about, and that that sort of stuff can be like a sign of cultural integration and that people are more accepted in society, rather than if everyone just regarded those types of foods as weird and avoided them along with the people that ate them.

You still get racist "curry" jokes aimed at Indians and Pakistanis, and one of Prince Phillip's gaffes was something to do with how the Chinese would "eat anything".

 

[frogwoman]

You still get racist "curry" jokes aimed at Indians and Pakistanis, and one of Prince Phillip's gaffes was something to do with how the Chinese would "eat anything".

but people would make those jokes anyway

 

[Tom A]

but people would make those jokes anyway

I know, I'm not aruging that only people from the subcontinent be allowed to eat curry as a result.

 

[Tom A]

From Not the Nine O'Clock News:



"A lot of immigrants are Indians and Pakistanis for instance, and... I like curry. But now that we've got the recipe, is there really any need for them to stay?" (from 1:18)

 

[Pickman's model]

From Not the Nine O'Clock News:



"A lot of immigrants are Indians and Pakistanis for instance, and... I like curry. But now that we've got the recipe, is there really any need for them to stay?" (from 1:18)

it was such a disappointment to see so many of the 'alternative comedians' from the 1980s turn into establishment toadies.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I actually know an now-ex-swppie who now lives in Sheffield and looks sorta like that, but comes across as genuinely working class all the same, was originally from that exclusive petty-bourgeois enclave known as Rotherham. Seemed like a genuine person and a good comrade when we were doing anti-benefit cuts campaigns in Manchester.

So not a middle class intersectionalista then. Why is this relevant?

 

[Tom A]

Because I wanted to make the point that not all of them are like that?

 

[Delroy Booth]

dispatches from the Glorious Intersectional Commentariat War, from the front lines in the twitter no-persons-land by your reporter Delroy "Fisk" Booth

Suzanne Moore wrote this. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/01/women-gain-feminism-diana-rigg?CMP=twt_gu

Stavvers wrote this. http://stavvers.tumblr.com/post/49427098074/an-open-letter-to-suzanne-moore-because-she-blocked-me

It seems Suzanne Moore (who I don't have much time for personally) is being anti-intersectional. Blasphemer!

 

[el-ahrairah]

it was such a disappointment to see so many of the 'alternative comedians' from the 1980s turn into establishment toadies.

yes, but at least it allows us to present evidence that the middle classes will side with their own eventually and are therefore not to be trusted.

 

[treelover]

[

yes, but at least it allows us to present evidence that the middle classes will side with their own eventually and are therefore not to be trusted.

Not always and it can work the other way, I remember one of the 47 Liverpool Councillors scabbing on the Liverpool Dockers

 

[frogwoman]

dispatches from the Glorious Intersectional Commentariat War, from the front lines in the twitter no-persons-land by your reporter Delroy "Fisk" Booth

Suzanne Moore wrote this. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/01/women-gain-feminism-diana-rigg?CMP=twt_gu

Stavvers wrote this. http://stavvers.tumblr.com/post/49427098074/an-open-letter-to-suzanne-moore-because-she-blocked-me

It seems Suzanne Moore (who I don't have much time for personally) is being anti-intersectional. Blasphemer!

An open letter to butchers from articul8 telling him to vote labour

An open letter from spymaster to casually red saying why he isnt going to call it the malvina's

An open letter to my friend for deleting me off facebook

An open letter to another friend for forgetting my birthday