Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[Delroy Booth]

Stop oppressing them with your innate superior chip-shouldering ability Delroy

Am I just turning into a stereotypical northerner whinging about private schoolkids running the world like the freemasons? Eurgh stop it your making me hate myself.

It makes you hate yourself actually this whole thing coz I'd prefer, in a perfect world, to not have these fucking kinds of debates. I'm sure stavvers and laurie etc are all perfectly sound people and in a perfect world I'd much prefer to be broadly on the same side, perhaps not on the exact same page politically, but I'm fairly pragmatic about that and have no moral problem with deferring to women and stuff. And it's galling if you've tried pretty much your whole adult life to be a decent ally then have to fight these battles on top of it, scared if you dare openly criticise something that's blatantly obviously deeply flawed you'll be denounced as a . God I make more of an effort to moderate my behaviour and be considerate than any other rugby playing meathead from Huddersfield I can think of. On maybe 9 out of 10 substantive issues I'd probably agree or at least pose no obstacle to what they believe, and would

Every time I go off and have a rant on twitter about the dumbest examples of privilige and/or intersectionality I get fucking people I've never even met who are part of that scene sending me DM's going "omg thank you for saying that you have no idea how much this has been pissing me off" and I know it's a cliche (numerous PM's of support etc) but there's something wrong going on here when this is going on.

 

[weepiper]

I just hate the way pointing out the essential bloody unfairness of it all leaves you open to accusations of chippiness or jealousy, as if that is somehow a moral failing, as if you should be 'bigger than that'. Well I'm fucking not.

 

[Firky]

Delroy's 2am rants on twitter have to be seen

 

[Favelado]

Delroy, you a great writer and poster and I've enjoyed every calorie you've burned on social media today. xxx

 

[treelover]

I used to have some quite bitter arguments (including when I was on Urban the first time round) about how the Left is allying with some pretty unpleasant and reactionary people in the name of opposing the bloodshed in [insert newsworthy Middle Eastern country here], and very soon you are deemed "Islamophobic" for stating that these Islamists, if given the chance, would do a lot of unpleasant things to the people they ruled, both Muslim and non-Muslim alike.

they are a bit quieter on that score now and a fair few have left the boards, thanks god..

 

[treelover]

Also, I stumbled into privilege theory via disabled people's rights politics. A lot of good work is done by the disabled rights movement, like campaigning for the implementation of the social model of disability (which states that it's society that disables people, not their impairments), and building organisations of disabled people, led by disabled people. At the time it all made a lot of sense, however even though it has its good points (and disabled people are very likely to be excluded from other movements, as well as from other aspects of society that non-disabled people take for granted), it is still a form of identity politics, and there is that same "us and them" mentality which means that all non-disabled need to prove themselves worthy of allydom.

O/T, but sadly the DWP/Govt has appropriated the social model to justify their welfare reforms and are slowly reconfiguring what it means to be disabled, etc, even the very term itself.

 

[Tom A]

I recall the times when they formed their own (short lived) boards (Dissensus, then The Tolling Gang, and finally Meanwhile at the Bar). The quality of the argument seems to be much better now, even with those I used to lock horns with. Although it helps I'm a bit older and can understand where people are coming from now, and also being someone whom hasn't fully escaped from the Tory onslaught on the working class has meant I am no longer the wet liberal that I was

 

[Tom A]

O/T, but sadly the DWP/Govt has appropriated the social model to justify their welfare reforms and are slowly reconfiguring what it means to be disabled, etc, even the very term itself.

Ahh yes, the "biosocialphysical" model, which when first conceived had its merits, such as how a person's environment can be disabling, and how mental impairments can impact on physical impairments and vice versa. However, it has been bastardised by this American insurance company called UNUM, and used as the basis for the ATOS "work capability assessment". This is what they are using to justify the cuts and the taking away of benefits.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

I recall the times when they formed their own (short lived) boards (Dissensus, then The Tolling Gang, and finally Meanwhile at the Bar).

I think that you might be getting different people confused there.

 

[treelover]

I recall the times when they formed their own (short lived) boards (Dissensus, then The Tolling Gang, and finally Meanwhile at the Bar). The quality of the argument seems to be much better now, even with those I used to lock horns with. Although it helps I'm a bit older and can understand where people are coming from now, and also being someone whom hasn't fully escaped from the Tory onslaught on the working class has meant I am no longer the wet liberal that I was

for all their faults, I'm not sure that MATB posters screamed 'Islamaphobe' at anyone, it was the Trot-bots, now mostly gone off here, that's who I meant anyway.

 

[Tom A]

I was making a comment about Urban (and particularly P and P) in general. But you're right, it was the "Trot-bots" who were busy screaming "Islamophobe" at everyone. It was the anarchists (well, the more dogmatic of the anarchists) whom tried forming their own boards IIRC.

 

[The39thStep]

I was making a comment about Urban (and particularly P and P) in general. But you're right, it was the "Trot-bots" who were busy screaming "Islamophobe" at everyone. It was the anarchists (well, the more dogmatic of the anarchists) whom tried forming their own boards IIRC.

You would be hard pushed to describe MATB as anarchist

 

[barney_pig]

It might be better not to talk bollocks about matb especially as most of us are here

 

[Blagsta]

Ahh yes, the "biosocialphysical" model, which when first conceived had its merits, such as how a person's environment can be disabling, and how mental impairments can impact on physical impairments and vice versa. However, it has been bastardised by this American insurance company called UNUM, and used as the basis for the ATOS "work capability assessment". This is what they are using to justify the cuts and the taking away of benefits.

Hmmmm, I've read a critique of the biopsychosocial model on (i think) the DPAC website. I didn't understand a lot of their critique tbh. Its a model used in mental health that means to take into account the biological (or medical), psychological and social aspects of mental health. Its certainly much better than the dominant psychiatric medical model.

 

[Steel Icarus]

Every time I go off and have a rant on twitter about the dumbest examples of privilige and/or intersectionality I get fucking people I've never even met who are part of that scene sending me DM's going "omg thank you for saying that you have no idea how much this has been pissing me off" and I know it's a cliche (numerous PM's of support etc) but there's something wrong going on here when this is going on.

This is my experience, too, with DMs. "THANKS for saying that - I daren't Tweet it onto my timeline cos I don't want to be mobbed/accused/called names/out of Ally Club"

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Hmmmm, I've read a critique of the biopsychosocial model on (i think) the DPAC website. I didn't understand a lot of their critique tbh. Its a model used in mental health that means to take into account the biological (or medical), psychological and social aspects of mental health. Its certainly much better than the dominant psychiatric medical model.

In a nutshell, it's because the biopsychosocial model had been championed by doctors and healthcare professionals who have close working links with DWP and private insurance companies such as Unum (well-known for manipulating official government policies on welfare reforms for some years now), and is suspected of being used to deny the accounts people give of their ill health or impairment, as well as its affect upon them i.e. to claim these are psychosomatic sickness. Given some of the well-publicised cases of people being found fit for work with terminal cancer, or whilst in a coma, perhaps DPAC do have some cause for concerns?

 

[The39thStep]

Laurie Penny ‏@PennyRed 6h
If you're doing exams right now, hang in there. Understanding that exams are bullshit will help you pass. Soon it'll be summer. Good luck.

 

[frogwoman]

But I end up thinking about this a lot with other threads on here. Some sort of radical journal perhaps? Not too big to be sell-out, not too small to be too marginal etc etc

You're right. Some sort of inquiry.

 

[rekil]

What Resistance Looks Like according to some pseud.

In a small gallery space on Stanton Street on New York City’s Lower East Side, Molly Crabapple has visualized what resistance looks like. Her dramatic densely packed spaces of liberation open your eyes as you walk out of the space. It’s a potent and (accidentally nostalgic) reminder of what the 2011 moment meant. On this May Day, it’s good to remember that resistance isn’t about violence, it isn’t gendered masculine, and it’s not the preserve of white privilege. It is fun, it’s lovely, it’s life-enhancing, it reminds us what love means above and beyond heteronormative coupling clichés.

This is like having boiling sick poured into my eyes.

 

[rekil]

If you're doing exams right now, hang in there. Understanding that exams are bullshit will help you pass. Soon it'll be summer. Good luck.

https://twitter.com/PennyRed/status/3363605668

Anthony Seldon is a LEGEND. He was my history teacher, and is a personal mentor. He's a lot of the reason I am like I am...

I was informed by a teacher that I would be applying to Oxford. I was the smartest kid in a smart school which needed to boost its Oxbridge figures:

Report to Mr.Seldon's office and explain why exams are 'bullshit'. How can Brighton and Wellington hope to keep their Oxford figures up with that sort of insolence going round the schoolyard? VERY disappointed in you Laura.

 

[Blagsta]

In a nutshell, it's because the biopsychosocial model had been championed by doctors and healthcare professionals who have close working links with DWP and private insurance companies such as Unum (well-known for manipulating official government policies on welfare reforms for some years now), and is suspected of being used to deny the accounts people give of their ill health or impairment, as well as its affect upon them i.e. to claim these are psychosomatic sickness. Given some of the well-publicised cases of people being found fit for work with terminal cancer, or whilst in a coma, perhaps DPAC do have some cause for concerns?

That's not really the fault of the model. The model attempts to integrate the differing perspectives of mental health, with varying degrees of success.

If its being used to deny people's own accounts then its not the bio-psycho-social model! As for psychosomatic - mental ill health and physical ill health are not separate issues, they are part and parcel of the same thing. IMO, the bio-psycho-social model is an attempt to recognise this and come up with a more holistic approach to illness. The fact that it is being misused and abused for political purposes should not mean we chuck the baby out with the bathwater. People being found fit for work when dying of cancer is not connected to the bio-psycho-social model IMO.

 

[Casually Red]

im stealing that one

 

[JimW]

I wonder if Mr Seldon is considering suing to stop having his academic credentials associated in this way with LP's cavalier methods with facts, quotes and documentation.

 

[The39thStep]

What Resistance Looks Like according to some pseud.



This is like having boiling sick poured into my eyes.

Resisttance last night looked like: a)me trying to convince some people in a pub that you can fly the St Georges flag without fear of prosecution by ethnic minorities b) getting the point across that the largest part of welfare cost is actually old age pensions c) managing to get a £20 bet out of a United fan that Mourinho will be at Chelsea next season

 

[JimW]

If we haven't taken the strategically vital commanding heights of the New York gallery crowd scene first we have no revolutionary ground to speak of, so I find this carping uncomradely.

 

[The39thStep]

Resistance last night looked like: a)me trying to convince some people in a pub that you can fly the St Georges flag without fear of prosecution by ethnic minorities b) getting the point across that the largest part of welfare cost is actually old age pensions c) managing to get a £20 bet out of a United fan that Mourinho will be at Chelsea next season

 

[SpineyNorman]

These articles are by a middle-class student at my uni who appropriates working-class culture by wearing a flatcap and trackies on a pretty regular basis

http://marxistqueen.wordpress.com/2...g-the-struggle-of-native-american-liberation/
http://marxistqueen.wordpress.com/2012/03/07/cultural-appropriation-continued/

All the middle class student intersectionalistas, especially the more annoying of the SWP dissidents, in Sheffield seem to have taken to wearing tracky tops and jeans. 'Speaking as' a working class person who always wears and has always worn that stuff, and more because it's comfortable than anything else, it actually really does piss me off. Not because they're 'trivialising my culture' or anything like that - I just really really don't want to be associated with them.

 

[toggle]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/01/women-gain-feminism-diana-rigg

One of the problems with the jargon of intersectionality is that it splinters. Much "on trend" feminism has lost touch as it is over-determined by sexuality. Whether we are discussing "sex workers", trans issues or porn, the overriding differences between women are far less "sexy". They remain largely to do with class. If feminism is to mean anything to most women, it has to mean an extension of their choices.

 

[Firky]

I don't understand that quote, I understand what it says but I don't get why IYSWIM.

Oh, it is Suzanne Moore. I am not reading that - winds me up too much

 

[toggle]

says something when she's the one making a bit more sense to me on this.

if we focused on class, a lot of the other stuff would fall into place.