Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[butchersapron]

It might be better not to talk bollocks about matb especially as most of us are here

On this very thread.

 

[phildwyer]

Y'know at some point I really want to go through this thread from the start and write some sort of critique about the whole thing. From the start.

I think that's a fabulous idea. I think that's the best idea you've ever had.

I'd want help. Who wants to help?

I'd say it ought to be a solo effort really. And you're exactly the right man for the job.

I've got loads of time to kill until November when I am (fingers crossed) fucking off out the country so lets get to work on this.

No time like the present!

Some sort of radical journal perhaps?

Definitely.

Let us know how you get on, 'kay?

 

[andysays]

All the middle class student intersectionalistas, especially the more annoying of the SWP dissidents, in Sheffield seem to have taken to wearing tracky tops and jeans. 'Speaking as' a working class person who always wears and has always worn that stuff, and more because it's comfortable than anything else, it actually really does piss me off. Not because they're 'trivialising my culture' or anything like that - I just really really don't want to be associated with them.

Time for a new look?

 

[Idris2002]

Time for a new look?

 

[Tom A]

This is my experience, too, with DMs. "THANKS for saying that - I daren't Tweet it onto my timeline cos I don't want to be mobbed/accused/called names/out of Ally Club"

I have had a similar experience when I got denounced on Facebook for putting a few controversial/poor taste/light hearted digging memes (nothing that could be considered "blatantly" oppressive) on my wall once, when I got a message from someone else whom fell out with the accusers a while back saying that they'd essentially lost the plot and whilst she didn't agree with what I put that their attempts to police people's FB walls were just plain bullying. Made me feel a lot better about stuff, particularly knowing that not all left-minded, activisty people felt that way.

 

[andysays]

To be clear, I was suggesting the Mao look for Spiney, now that the intersectionalistas have appropriated his "look".

Who are you suggesting that get up for?

 

[Tom A]

All the middle class student intersectionalistas, especially the more annoying of the SWP dissidents, in Sheffield seem to have taken to wearing tracky tops and jeans. 'Speaking as' a working class person who always wears and has always worn that stuff, and more because it's comfortable than anything else, it actually really does piss me off. Not because they're 'trivialising my culture' or anything like that - I just really really don't want to be associated with them.

I actually know an now-ex-swppie who now lives in Sheffield and looks sorta like that, but comes across as genuinely working class all the same, was originally from that exclusive petty-bourgeois enclave known as Rotherham. Seemed like a genuine person and a good comrade when we were doing anti-benefit cuts campaigns in Manchester.

 

[treelover]

What Resistance Looks Like according to some pseud.



This is like having boiling sick poured into my eyes.

when I read things like that I wonder what it would have looked like it if John Reid or Orwell had been into identity politics, how the books would have been different

 

[ViolentPanda]

These articles are by a middle-class student at my uni who appropriates working-class culture by wearing a flatcap and trackies on a pretty regular basis

http://marxistqueen.wordpress.com/2...g-the-struggle-of-native-american-liberation/
http://marxistqueen.wordpress.com/2012/03/07/cultural-appropriation-continued/

Mr. Brophy would be advised to:
a) Get someone to sub-edit his writings.
b) Perhaps entertain the possibility that the information he derives from his sources might, just possibly, be partisan
c) Learn the subject he discourses on in some kind of depth before writing blog posts.

I know that having a clue what you're talking about isn't fashionable for young middle-class bloggers, but it does make for a better read, and subbing your prose is almost always productive.

Perhaps I should check my privileges, though.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Also, I stumbled into privilege theory via disabled people's rights politics. A lot of good work is done by the disabled rights movement, like campaigning for the implementation of the social model of disability (which states that it's society that disables people, not their impairments), and building organisations of disabled people, led by disabled people. At the time it all made a lot of sense, however even though it has its good points (and disabled people are very likely to be excluded from other movements, as well as from other aspects of society that non-disabled people take for granted), it is still a form of identity politics, and there is that same "us and them" mentality which means that all non-disabled need to prove themselves worthy of allydom.

Frankly, although I'm a disabled person, I've never been a wholehearted espouser of the social model, not least because many of the more wholehearted espousers rode the identity politics bandwagon quite hard back in the day ('80s and '90s), and made a point of anathematising the medical model and (more importantly IMO) anything connected to it. This led to, for example, my mate Eddy's deaf parents prevaricating about him getting cochlear implants for a couple of years, until he was old enough to make the choice himself.
Too much identity politics still after more than 30 years "on the scene", throws the baby out with the bathwater. Life is about compromise, not ideological purity.

 

[frogwoman]

Mr. Brophy would be advised to:
a) Get someone to sub-edit his writings.
b) Perhaps entertain the possibility that the information he derives from his sources might, just possibly, be partisan
c) Learn the subject he discourses on in some kind of depth before writing blog posts.

I know that having a clue what you're talking about isn't fashionable for young middle-class bloggers, but it does make for a better read, and subbing your prose is almost always productive.

Perhaps I should check my privileges, though.

he makes some good points but isn't "cultural appropriation" how we got things like fish and chips for example?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Ahh yes, the "biosocialphysical" model...

That's "biopsychosocial".

 

[Idris2002]

To be clear, I was suggesting the Mao look for Spiney, now that the intersectionalistas have appropriated his "look".

Who are you suggesting that get up for?

For the hipster intersectionalistas actually (googling for that image, I found plenty of examples of the real thing, btw, and they are very, very ugly indeed).

 

[ViolentPanda]

he makes some good points but isn't "cultural appropriation" how we got things like fish and chips for example?

It can certainly be reduced to that.
The problem for arguments about cultural appropriation is that "culture" (by which I mean both large-scale and small-scale culture) is not a static thing. Unless a culture is "closed", i.e. entirely isolated and insulated from outside influence, then culture is fluid, and it's probably the most promiscuously-hybridising force on G-d's green earth. All cultures appropriate ideas and practices from other cultures, and that's actually a good thing, because it keeps cultures alive and (more importantly) relevant to the mass of people within a culture or subculture.

 

[frogwoman]

It can certainly be reduced to that.
The problem for arguments about cultural appropriation is that "culture" (by which I mean both large-scale and small-scale culture) is not a static thing. Unless a culture is "closed", i.e. entirely isolated and insulated from outside influence, then culture is fluid, and it's probably the most promiscuously-hybridising force on G-d's green earth. All cultures appropriate ideas and practices from other cultures, and that's actually a good thing, because it keeps cultures alive and (more importantly) relevant to the mass of people within a culture or subculture.

i mean the only time i can think it might be problematic is if it's done to take the piss, like people blacking up or something. or tory students dressing in burkhas at a fancy dress night or something like that.

I'm not going to cry my eyes out when i see bagel factory put it that way, in fact i think it's a good thing because i think that if the food or clothing becomes popular people can understand a bit more about the culture.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I was making a comment about Urban (and particularly P and P) in general. But you're right, it was the "Trot-bots" who were busy screaming "Islamophobe" at everyone. It was the anarchists (well, the more dogmatic of the anarchists) whom tried forming their own boards IIRC.

Hmm, ernestolynch an anarchist...nah!

 

[ViolentPanda]

i mean the only time i can think it might be problematic is if it's done to take the piss, like people blacking up or something. or tory students dressing in burkhas at a fancy dress night or something like that.

Even then, it depends on the context, Svart Piet, for example, isn't the same level of problem that The Black and White Minstrels were.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Hmmmm, I've read a critique of the biopsychosocial model on (i think) the DPAC website. I didn't understand a lot of their critique tbh. Its a model used in mental health that means to take into account the biological (or medical), psychological and social aspects of mental health. Its certainly much better than the dominant psychiatric medical model.

A lot of criticism/critiques of the biopsychosocial model aren't about the aptness of the model per se, but about how it gets applied, and to whom. It's certainly amenable to psychiatry (mis)using it with much the same results as their dominant discourse.

 

[caleb]

All the middle class student intersectionalistas, especially the more annoying of the SWP dissidents, in Sheffield seem to have taken to wearing tracky tops and jeans. 'Speaking as' a working class person who always wears and has always worn that stuff, and more because it's comfortable than anything else, it actually really does piss me off. Not because they're 'trivialising my culture' or anything like that - I just really really don't want to be associated with them.

in leeds the 'swp dissidents' as you put it jumped on the 'intersectionality'/'privilege' stuff as soon as they were out of the party. a sense of guilt?

 

[frogwoman]

Even then, it depends on the context, Svart Piet, for example, isn't the same level of problem that The Black and White Minstrels were.

yeah but when I see bagel factory at reading train station i don't think it's an example of oppression, i think it's a good thing when food/clothing becomes popular and people are interested in it coz it means they learn more about the culture

 

[ViolentPanda]

It might be better not to talk bollocks about matb especially as most of us are here

Anarchist wankers! Grrrr.

 

[andysays]

For the hipster intersectionalistas actually (googling for that image, I found plenty of examples of the real thing, btw, and they are very, very ugly indeed).

Your guys appear to be rocking a Hugo Ball look

 

[Idris2002]

For a split second I read andysays post there as "rocking a Hugo Boss look" and thought WTF?

 

[Tom A]

Frankly, although I'm a disabled person, I've never been a wholehearted espouser of the social model, not least because many of the more wholehearted espousers rode the identity politics bandwagon quite hard back in the day ('80s and '90s)

I can see that. Again there seems to be a lack of understanding that privileged (in this case, non-disabled) people have feelings too. Also a lot of the rhetoric tended to appear to blame every non-disabled person for the way disabled people are mis-treated in society. For example, when DAN (that's the Disabled People's Direct Action Network for everyone reading this) blockaded bus stations because buses at the time weren't wheelchair accessible, one of the slogans was "We're DAN, you're trapped, get used to it!". Now for commuters going about their daily lives that isn't going to garner much sympathy, and if you're an "Aspie" like me whom is caught up in this and just wants to get from A to B then one could understand not being that sympathetic at all (I can get royally freaked out if I am due to be somewhere and get held up).

Having said that, DAN back in the day did some good things, all bar a few buses in most urban areas have wheelchair spaces (though one still has to have faith that the driver won't rudely tell you to piss off), and it challenged the patronising way a lot of mainstream disability charities (which usually had very few disabled people working on them, especially at executive level) thought they knew what was best, and challenged the public perception of disabled people as these poor, pathetic creatures that needed to be saved from their tragic circumstances. However fast forward to two and a half years ago when I first heard of them, and the local group became inactive because any attempt to make a meeting happen, or build for an action was effectively vetoed by one or two old-timers in the group whom didn't like the fact it couldn't be 100% accessible to 100% of people.

made a point of anathematising the medical model and (more importantly IMO) anything connected to it. This led to, for example, my mate Eddy's deaf parents prevaricating about him getting cochlear implants for a couple of years, until he was old enough to make the choice himself.

I really can't stand "Deaf with a capital D" people. I know privilege theory dictates I have no right to object because I can hear perfectly well, but I still cannot stand their separatist, holier-than-thou ways. I have similar issues with autistic spectrum rights people, no, I don't think that autism is something that needs to be "cured", nor should a cure be forced upon us (some of the US based work on finding a cure is well scary), but I don't like the separatist mentality which makes everything a neurotypical conspiracy against them. Also many of the more hardcore social model advocates really would rather remain impaired than have anything to do that would potentially improve their quality of life, and if they don't want any intervention, then fine, but leave the option open to those whom, say, would love to be able to walk again without being in extreme pain, for example.

Too much identity politics still after more than 30 years "on the scene", throws the baby out with the bathwater. Life is about compromise, not ideological purity.

In many ways not too dissimilar to the state of the Left in general...

 

[ViolentPanda]

yeah but when I see bagel factory at reading train station i don't think it's an example of oppression, i think it's a good thing when food/clothing becomes popular and people are interested in it coz it means they learn more about the culture

It means they have the opportunity to learn more, if they care to, at least.
And it's a "good thing", insofar as it makes cultures less insular and more accepting of difference.

 

[Tom A]

he makes some good points but isn't "cultural appropriation" how we got things like fish and chips for example?

And Chicken Tikka Masala?

 

[andysays]

For a split second I read andysays post there as "rocking a Hugo Boss look" and thought WTF?

 

[Tom A]

i mean the only time i can think it might be problematic is if it's done to take the piss, like people blacking up or something. or tory students dressing in burkhas at a fancy dress night or something like that.

In the case of white Americans dressing up as Native Americans (particularly on Halloween), you can understand why that can indeed be problematic though.

 

[Idris2002]

In the case of white Americans dressing up as Native Americans (particularly on Halloween), you can understand why that can indeed be problematic though.

Or Jean-Marie Le Pen parading around in an Indian chief's headdress.

 

[frogwoman]

In the case of white Americans dressing up as Native Americans (particularly on Halloween), you can understand why that can indeed be problematic though.

yeah obviously that's out of order that's why i said if they're doing it to take the piss.