Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[frogwoman]

an open letter to suzanne moore because she blocked me

really.

REALLY?

 

[Tom A]

An open letter to butchers from articul8 telling him to vote labour

An open letter from spymaster to casually red saying why he isnt going to call it the malvina's

An open letter to my friend for deleting me off facebook

An open letter to another friend for forgetting my birthday

Mebbe I should try that one with the person whom unfriended me from FB and blocked me on Twitter a year ago because I slagged off Occupy London.

Assuming I thought it was worth it that is

 

[cesare]

I can see that. Again there seems to be a lack of understanding that privileged (in this case, non-disabled) people have feelings too. Also a lot of the rhetoric tended to appear to blame every non-disabled person for the way disabled people are mis-treated in society. For example, when DAN (that's the Disabled People's Direct Action Network for everyone reading this) blockaded bus stations because buses at the time weren't wheelchair accessible, one of the slogans was "We're DAN, you're trapped, get used to it!". Now for commuters going about their daily lives that isn't going to garner much sympathy, and if you're an "Aspie" like me whom is caught up in this and just wants to get from A to B then one could understand not being that sympathetic at all (I can get royally freaked out if I am due to be somewhere and get held up).

Having said that, DAN back in the day did some good things, all bar a few buses in most urban areas have wheelchair spaces (though one still has to have faith that the driver won't rudely tell you to piss off), and it challenged the patronising way a lot of mainstream disability charities (which usually had very few disabled people working on them, especially at executive level) thought they knew what was best, and challenged the public perception of disabled people as these poor, pathetic creatures that needed to be saved from their tragic circumstances. However fast forward to two and a half years ago when I first heard of them, and the local group became inactive because any attempt to make a meeting happen, or build for an action was effectively vetoed by one or two old-timers in the group whom didn't like the fact it couldn't be 100% accessible to 100% of people.



I really can't stand "Deaf with a capital D" people. I know privilege theory dictates I have no right to object because I can hear perfectly well, but I still cannot stand their separatist, holier-than-thou ways. I have similar issues with autistic spectrum rights people, no, I don't think that autism is something that needs to be "cured", nor should a cure be forced upon us (some of the US based work on finding a cure is well scary), but I don't like the separatist mentality which makes everything a neurotypical conspiracy against them. Also many of the more hardcore social model advocates really would rather remain impaired than have anything to do that would potentially improve their quality of life, and if they don't want any intervention, then fine, but leave the option open to those whom, say, would love to be able to walk again without being in extreme pain, for example.


In many ways not too dissimilar to the state of the Left in general...

Do you hate all "Deaf" separatist people or just the middle class hipster commentariat ones?

 

[Tom A]

Do you hate all "Deaf" separatist people or just the middle class hipster commentariat ones?

Who said anything about "hate?" That's a pretty strong word which I don't appreciate being put in my mouth. I just find their holier-than-thou attitude (and the blaming everything on those that have average to good hearing abilities - a common theme within all identity politics) annoying in the extreme.

 

[cesare]

Who said anything about "hate?" That's a pretty strong word which I don't appreciate being put in my mouth. I just find their holier-than-thou attitude (and the blaming everything on those that have average to good hearing abilities - a common theme within all identity politics) annoying in the extreme.

Yes, someone equated "can't stand" to "hate" with something I said last week too, and I didn't appreciate it so I get that. I didn't have a fucking tantrum about it though. This "holier-than-thou" attitude - does that apply to their hand signals too btw?

 

[Tom A]

Yes, someone equated "can't stand" to "hate" with something I said last week too, and I didn't appreciate it so I get that. I didn't have a fucking tantrum about it though. This "holier-than-thou" attitude - does that apply to their hand signals too btw?

If I'm being accused of something - spit it out so I can properly defend myself. Oh and insinuating I'm "having a tantrum" - nice way to dismiss whatever I have to say.

 

[frogwoman]

Actually i may be labelled as some sort of intersectionalist but doesn't the criticism of the DAN for blockading bus stations also apply to other direct action groups as well? like some of the boycott workfare/tax evasion stuff as well. I think direct action needs to be done with some sort of attempt to talk to the people involved and get their support, for example giving leaflets out at bus stations etc but I don't think that this type of action is necessarily a bad thing just because people are inconvenienced, and if it resulted in getting better disabled access in bus stops etc surely that's a good thing?

It's like people complaining about strikes on public transport because they're inconvenienced public transport is so shit i'd rather i was delayed for a good reason than because the bus broke down or some shit

 

[Tom A]

Actually i may be labelled as some sort of intersectionalist but doesn't the criticism of the DAN for blockading bus stations also apply to other direct action groups as well? like some of the boycott workfare/tax evasion stuff as well. I think direct action needs to be done with some sort of attempt to talk to the people involved and get their support, for example giving leaflets out at bus stations etc but I don't think that this type of action is necessarily a bad thing just because people are inconvenienced, and if it resulted in getting better disabled access in bus stops etc surely that's a good thing?

It's like people complaining about strikes on public transport because they're inconvenienced public transport is so shit i'd rather i was delayed for a good reason than because the bus broke down or some shit

I don't think it is entirely "a bad thing", and sometimes it cannot be helped if people are at least slightly inconvenienced, but the "we're trapped, get used to it", slogan seems very much attacking the non-disabled public as a whole. But then I tend to be very bitter and jaded when it comes to activism. However the one thing all direct action groups consistently fall short on is engagement with the wider public.

But hey, non-accessible buses have become an increasingly rare sight, so it must have worked

 

[cesare]

If I'm being accused of something - spit it out so I can properly defend myself. Oh and insinuating I'm "having a tantrum" - nice way to dismiss whatever I have to say.

I've spat out two questions, neither of which you've answered.

 

[frogwoman]

I don't think it is entirely "a bad thing", and sometimes it cannot be helped if people are at least slightly inconvenienced, but the "we're trapped, get used to it", slogan seems very much attacking the non-disabled public as a whole. But then I tend to be very bitter and jaded when it comes to activism. However the one thing all direct action groups consistently fall short on is engagement with the wider public.

But hey, non-accessible buses have become an increasingly rare sight, so it must have worked

see i think that if they got a victory out of it they might have had some slightly warped ideas but the good that came out of it (ie getting a collective victory and getting confidence in themselves) probably outweighs the bad, hopefully the experiences while campaigning will help them "relate to the public better" during direct action anyway

and personally i think sometimes people overestimate the "negative PR" direct action will get, sometimes that sort of thing actually gives people hope

 

[Tom A]

I've spat out two questions, neither of which you've answered.

Both of which to me appeared worded in an accusatory tone, designed to give you ammunition in order to character assassinate me. But since the only way to get you to shut up is to at least try, I will attempt to do so.

Do you hate all "Deaf" separatist people or just the middle class hipster commentariat ones?

I "can't stand" (that's the actual term I used) separatist people from all forms of identity politics - "Deaf" people are only one example.

This "holier-than-thou" attitude - does that apply to their hand signals too btw?

Using sign language has nothing to do with being holier-than-thou, the idea that it does is a load of bollocks. However, denouncing people who have cochlear implants IS holier-than-thou.

 

[cesare]

Both of which to me appeared worded in an accusatory tone, designed to give you ammunition in order to character assassinate me. But since the only way to get you to shut up is to at least try, I will attempt to do so.



I "can't stand" (that's the actual term I used) separatist people from all forms of identity politics - "Deaf" people are only one example.


Using sign language has nothing to do with being holier-than-thou, the idea that it does is a load of bollocks. However, denouncing people who have cochlear implants IS holier-than-thou.

I used the word "hate" instead of "can't stand" which I accept and accepted. I also pointed out that it had been done to me last week, and I didn't like it either. However, you (unlike me) went completely off at the deep end over it (which I called a "tantrum" because it was, and continues to be completely disproportionate) and are still doing so. Fucking get over yourself.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Genuine question: has anyone seen the old GDR films with "Indians" as the heroes against the capitalist imperialist cowboys?

Saw one on German TV (one of the regional channels) back in '08. can't remember what it was called, though. Good quality of acting, which surprised me.

 

[ViolentPanda]

dispatches from the Glorious Intersectional Commentariat War, from the front lines in the twitter no-persons-land by your reporter Delroy "Fisk" Booth

Suzanne Moore wrote this. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/01/women-gain-feminism-diana-rigg?CMP=twt_gu

Stavvers wrote this. http://stavvers.tumblr.com/post/49427098074/an-open-letter-to-suzanne-moore-because-she-blocked-me

It seems Suzanne Moore (who I don't have much time for personally) is being anti-intersectional. Blasphemer!

Truly Moore should be treated as any apostate should be, and have her head chopped off!!!

 

[Tom A]

However, you (unlike me) went completely off at the deep end over it (which I called a "tantrum" because it was, and continues to be completely disproportionate) and are still doing so. Fucking get over yourself.

By the standards of the Internet, I consider this a fairly reasonable response when people misquote me and twist my words:

Who said anything about "hate?" That's a pretty strong word which I don't appreciate being put in my mouth.

No fighting words, no shouty language, and (unlike you) no swearing. I would have happily let it drop if you just acknowledged you conflated the two terms. Instead, you have a go at me for overreacting in an attempt to look down on me.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Actually i may be labelled as some sort of intersectionalist but doesn't the criticism of the DAN for blockading bus stations also apply to other direct action groups as well? like some of the boycott workfare/tax evasion stuff as well. I think direct action needs to be done with some sort of attempt to talk to the people involved and get their support, for example giving leaflets out at bus stations etc but I don't think that this type of action is necessarily a bad thing just because people are inconvenienced, and if it resulted in getting better disabled access in bus stops etc surely that's a good thing?

It's like people complaining about strikes on public transport because they're inconvenienced public transport is so shit i'd rather i was delayed for a good reason than because the bus broke down or some shit

TBF, DAN are pains in the arse to the general public, but they're highly-successful because they're pains in the arse, and aren't worried about getting nicked for their actions. Frankly, without direct action protests on public transport accessibility, we'd be even worse off than now (in London, only buses are properly accessible), with overground and underground stations not even at 25% of them being accessible.

 

[sihhi]

Can I just ask why you’re saying “Caucasian” rather than white? Have you been in the US?

It would be a gesture of good faith to Sam, who is a disabled WoC, who doesn't want you posting that without her consent.

How British is WOC?

 

[Tom A]

TBF, DAN are pains in the arse to the general public, but they're highly-successful because they're pains in the arse, and aren't worried about getting nicked for their actions. Frankly, without direct action protests on public transport accessibility, we'd be even worse off than now (in London, only buses are properly accessible), with overground and underground stations not even at 25% of them being accessible.

Correction, DAN were pains in the arse to the general public. They seem to be very quiet now, and nowhere as visible as they were in their early 90s heyday. Partly because other campaigns superseeded them, and also because the key people involved have passed away, as in many cases their impairments resulted in a shortened life expectancy.

I might not have 100% agreed with their tactics 100% of the time, but at the time they were successful in doing what they set out to do, and this country is a better place for disabled people as a result. I would actually like to see more DAN-style action against benefit cuts now.

 

[cesare]

By the standards of the Internet, I consider this a fairly reasonable response when people misquote me and twist my words:



No fighting words, no shouty language, and (unlike you) no swearing. I would have happily let it drop if you just acknowledged you conflated the two terms. Instead, you have a go at me for overreacting in an attempt to look down on me.

No, the person doing the looking down is you "by the standards of the internet" which if you want to reference, you can source whilst you're at it. I did acknowledge it, so don't misrepresent me. You over-reacted and are doing your best to deflect the conversation into that rather than the substance of what I was asking you.

 

[butchersapron]

yer i don't think that on it own helps, but i'm saying that it's not a bad tihng or worth getting upset about, and that that sort of stuff can be like a sign of cultural integration and that people are more accepted in society, rather than if everyone just regarded those types of foods as weird and avoided them along with the people that ate them.

Why are you saying yer?

 

[Tom A]

I did acknowledge it.

and then rather than just "acknowledge" that you continued to have a go at me. I was calm and polite, you were sweary and belittling. If anyone is over-reacting, it's not me.

You over-reacted and are doing your best to deflect the conversation into that rather than the substance of what I was asking you.

As I was saying (maybe try and read the whole lot this time):

Do you hate all "Deaf" separatist people or just the middle class hipster commentariat ones?​

I "can't stand" (that's the actual term I used) separatist people from all forms of identity politics - "Deaf" people are only one example.

This "holier-than-thou" attitude - does that apply to their hand signals too btw?​

Using sign language has nothing to do with being holier-than-thou, the idea that it does is a load of bollocks. However, denouncing people who have cochlear implants IS holier-than-thou.

 

[sihhi]

I suspect the average racist is unaware of the cultural origins of fish and chips, and wouldn't believe you if you told him where they came from.

Fish and chips are, to many, as English as antisemitism.

Most English people think antisemitism is very 'un-English'.
Even the Tory right hold the Mail wholly wrong for supporting Moseley because of his antisemitism, don't they?

 

[cesare]

Oh yeah, welcome back btw.

And can you point me to any denouncing of people with cochlear implants? I'm aware that they're not supportive for many reasons, but the denouncing's past me by.

 

[Tom A]

Most English people think antisemitism is very 'un-English'.
Even the Tory right hold the Mail wholly wrong for supporting Moseley because of his antisemitism, don't they?

Historically, the English were not at all very nice to the Jews at all, and there were plenty of massacres, a major one in York in 1190. Jews were banned from the country not so long after, and had to wait till Cromwell to be allowed back in.

 

[Tom A]

And can you point me to any denouncing of people with cochlear implants? I'm aware that they're not supportive for many reasons, but the denouncing's past me by.

The choice of the word "denouncing" might have been OTT on my behalf, but the reasons why some many are anti-them seem a bit strange, dogmatic even, to me.

Now let's let that be the end of that.

 

[sihhi]

Been reading Zoe Stavri's blog - sharper writing than LP - but this bit was confusing:

Yes, we all fuck up, and nobody’s perfect, but embrace that criticism and learn from it and it will make you a better person.

Sometimes it’s hard to confront your own privilege, particularly when your life sucks because of one form of oppression you experience. But know that there are other forms of oppression that you are lucky not to have a fucking clue what the experience is like. Fuck the radfem mentality, or the privileged queer “let’s get married, everything else is fine” mentality, or the “no war but class war” mentality. All of these oppressions overlap, and fucks people over in different ways.

It’s telling that those rejecting intersectional oppression also happen to be the ones who probably don’t experience it. It’s also hugely fucking unfortunate that these are the people controlling the discourse.

In terms of the life lottery, I can hardly say I’m a winner, but I’m not doing too badly all things considered. Yes, I’m a woman and I’m queer and I have a chronic medical condition, but I’m also cis and white and thin and have enough money to survive. I think I’m reasonably aware of my privileges, but I know I’m not perfect. So if you see me fuck up, if you see me cissplaining or using problematic language or failing to check my white privilege, then call me out on it. Publicly, if you want. Loudly, if you want. I will do my best to understand how I fucked up and try to be a better ally.

Calling out privilege isn’t a threat. Intersectionality isn’t a threat. Instead of calling for unity around the privileged few to stop the infighting, why don’t we try to mitigate privilege and try to be better?

a. the whole 'f- ... the “no war but class war” mentality' ...

b. how are "the few" privileged as "the privileged few"? In this country, 95% of the population is privileged because they are not non-white.

Am I being over-sensitive?

 

[sihhi]

Historically, the English were not at all very nice to the Jews at all, and there were plenty of massacres, a major one in York in 1190. Jews were banned from the country not so long after, and had to wait till Cromwell to be allowed back in.

Sure, but a majority of racists in this country probably consider Britain's record superior to other European or Middle Eastern countries - hence a source of national pride etc.
Anyway derail over.

 

[Tom A]

I so need to get to work on making Privilege Theory/Identity Politics Bingo

 

[cesare]

The choice of the word "denouncing" might have been OTT on my behalf, but the reasons why some many are anti-them seem a bit strange, dogmatic even, to me.

Now let's let that be the end of that.

Yes, denouncing was OTT. I can't remember which thread it was now, but there's a very interesting one where one of the posters here (mrsfran) describes what the results of cochlear implants are for the profoundly deaf. Iirc, the effect is like having white noise turned on because the sounds are just sounds, not language. The brain has to learn what sounds mean from scratch with no or little reference point, there's massive language implications beyond the physical effect. Anyway, I'm no expert on this at all, but it's worth getting an insight from mrsfran if you're interested.

 

[andysays]

Most English people think antisemitism is very 'un-English'.

Many English people might think that overt expressions of antisemitism are very "un-English", frightfully bad form , don't you know, but many (not exactly the same many, but an overlapping one) still harbour antisemitic opinions and are not afraid to express them, if subtly, on occasion.

Note that I never said most, I compared antisemitism to fish and chips (you see why, right?), and most English people don't eat fish and chips every week anymore, if indeed they ever did.

Even the Tory right hold the Mail wholly wrong for supporting Moseley because of his antisemitism, don't they?

Do they? Are you talking then or now, and how (who) do you define the Tory right?