Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[andysays]

Historically, the English were not at all very nice to the Jews at all, and there were plenty of massacres, a major one in York in 1190. Jews were banned from the country not so long after, and had to wait till Cromwell to be allowed back in.

Just as well he did, or we wouldn't have fish and chips (apologies if I've got the chronology slightly wrong)

 

[Tom A]

Yes, denouncing was OTT. I can't remember which thread it was now, but there's a very interesting one where one of the posters here (mrsfran) describes what the results of cochlear implants are for the profoundly deaf. Iirc, the effect is like having white noise turned on because the sounds are just sounds, not language. The brain has to learn what sounds mean from scratch with no or little reference point, there's massive language implications beyond the physical effect. Anyway, I'm no expert on this at all, but it's worth getting an insight from mrsfran if you're interested.

Okay, apologies for my ignorance on the matter. I am fully aware they aren't for everyone. Also if they happen to be on the autistic spectrum as well, and have an issue with sensory overload, then that's doubly unpleasant.

 

[butchersapron]

Historically, the English were not at all very nice to the Jews at all, and there were plenty of massacres, a major one in York in 1190. Jews were banned from the country not so long after, and had to wait till Cromwell to be allowed back in.

The English? On this thread? And we have nice state/nasty state here don't we?

 

[sihhi]

Many English people might think that overt expressions of antisemitism are very "un-English", frightfully bad form , don't you know, but many (not exactly the same many, but an overlapping one) still harbour antisemitic opinions and are not afraid to express them, if subtly, on occasion.

OK, fair enough.

Note that I never said most, I compared antisemitism to fish and chips (you see why, right?), and most English people don't eat fish and chips every week anymore, if indeed they ever did.

Because fish and chips was an idea from someone Jewish, although the chips part is very French. Is it just about it being Jewish or about it being a mixed concept - maybe even a multicultural? thing back in the nineteenth century whenever it was.

Do they? Are you talking then or now, and how (who) do you define the Tory right?

I was talking now. People on the Tory Eurosceptic social conservativist, anti-immigration wing - Nick Soames and all that, writers like Peter Hitchens.
They often ascribe "the country's" anti-anti-semitism as a great English/British strength.

 

[andysays]

The English? On this thread? And we have nice state/nasty state here don't we?

Well we have nicer state/nastier state, but it's kind of a bigger version of good cop/bad cop...

 

[andysays]

Because fish and chips was an idea from someone Jewish, although the chips part is very French. Is it just about it being Jewish or about it being a mixed concept - maybe even a multicultural? thing back in the nineteenth century whenever it was

I thought (although this may be something of an urban myth) that the technique of deep-frying food which gives us fish and chips came to Britain with Jewish refugees driven out by the Spanish Inquisition. Is that roughly the same time as Cromwell/ I don't claim to be much of a historian.

I was talking now. People on the Tory Eurosceptic social conservativist, anti-immigration wing - Nick Soames and all that, writers like Peter Hitchens. They often ascribe "the country's" anti-anti-semitism as a great English/British strength.

OK, fair enough. TBH (and I hope you'll excuse the obvious pun) I'd take that with a pinch of salt. It's more about the not making it too obvious thing I mentioned above.

It is frightfully un-English to wear jackboots, strut around like Mussolini and send train-loads to the gas chambers, but you still wouldn't want one of them to join the golf club, would you?

 

[frogwoman]

Why are you saying yer?

dunno tbh, i sometimes do

 

[frogwoman]

Most English people think antisemitism is very 'un-English'.
Even the Tory right hold the Mail wholly wrong for supporting Moseley because of his antisemitism, don't they?

No I think you're right, especially since the second world war, and so much right-wing british nationalism is all about the war and churchill and the "blitz spirit" anyway

 

[Tom A]

No I think you're right, especially since the second world war, and so much right-wing british nationalism is all about the war and churchill and the "blitz spirit" anyway

Although obviously that wasn't the case when Moseley and the BUF where at their height.

 

[frogwoman]

Many English people might think that overt expressions of antisemitism are very "un-English", frightfully bad form , don't you know, but many (not exactly the same many, but an overlapping one) still harbour antisemitic opinions and are not afraid to express them, if subtly, on occasion.

Note that I never said most, I compared antisemitism to fish and chips (you see why, right?), and most English people don't eat fish and chips every week anymore, if indeed they ever did.



Do they? Are you talking then or now, and how (who) do you define the Tory right?

in my experience there are some people who have anti-semitic views, consider themselves on the left, and don't consider themselves racist or on the right at all and probably hold daily mail readers etc in contempt

i don't think the people who were say involved in occupy and harboured anti-semitic opinions were the same people who it is stereotypically thought read the daily mail or vote ukip

 

[butchersapron]

Although obviously that wasn't the case when Moseley and the BUF where at their height.

The BUF was pre-war and the post-war stuff was based on common euro-nationalism/black immigration. Anti-semitism didn't even enter into the equation.

 

[frogwoman]

Although obviously that wasn't the case when Moseley and the BUF where at their height.

The war destroyed anti-semitism on a wide scale as a social force in this country imo. I don't think anti-semitism will ever have the social force it did in the country before the war. And even before the war there was massive resistance to it look at Cable Street for example.

 

[butchersapron]

dunno tbh, i sometimes do

Why?

 

[Tom A]

in my experience there are some people who have anti-semitic views, consider themselves on the left, and don't consider themselves racist or on the right at all and probably hold daily mail readers etc in contempt

Regretfully they are often found in on the fringes of the Palestine solidarity movement.

 

[butchersapron]

The war destroyed anti-semitism on a wide scale as a social force in this country imo. I don't think anti-semitism will ever have the social force it did in the country before the war. And even before the war there was massive resistance to it look at Cable Street for example.

It was never a social force in this country.

 

[frogwoman]

Many English people might think that overt expressions of antisemitism are very "un-English", frightfully bad form , don't you know, but many (not exactly the same many, but an overlapping one) still harbour antisemitic opinions and are not afraid to express them, if subtly, on occasion.

Note that I never said most, I compared antisemitism to fish and chips (you see why, right?), and most English people don't eat fish and chips every week anymore, if indeed they ever did.



Do they? Are you talking then or now, and how (who) do you define the Tory right?

I know the sort of people you're talking about and have had a bit of that shit but when I have told other people about it since, they have been shocked, because the overwhelming majority of people think it's unacceptable, a lot of that is because of the war.

maybe i need to check my privilege or something but I just don't think that compared to many other countries it's that bad.

 

[frogwoman]

And the last stuff that happened was in 1290, that's almost a thousand years ago, you can't take the whole history of a country and say that that proves there's a deep tradition of it, because it was 800 years ago that happened and I don't think the UK today can remotely be compared to it, it's a completely different place, if we went back in time we wouldn't even be able to recognise anything and most of the towns and villages we have today wouldn't exist, we dont even have the same language we had then or the same anything

 

[frogwoman]

Regretfully they are often found in on the fringes of the Palestine solidarity movement.

Yeah and I don't think most of those people even consider themselves british nationalists, they probably think they hate nationalism.

I don't think it's ever been a mass force or anything, it's not like I don't notice it, I always call it out when I see it and that sort of thing, but I just don't think it's part of the political traditions of the UK in the way that people on the thread seem to be saying it is.

 

[Tom A]

Yeah and I don't think those people even consider themselves british nationalists, they probably think they hate nationalism.

They are usually indeed "right on" lefties, despise anything that can be considered nationalistic of their own country, and claim to despise all forms of nationalism, unless it's branded as a legitimate struggle for liberation. But it's well documented that they will often side with all sorts of nasty reactionary groups if it means opposing "Western imperialism", unaware that there are rival imperialisms out there that are just as harmful.

 

[equationgirl]

I read the new LP article.

I couldn't take it seriously after reading 'lady-media industrial complex'. I mean, come on! Really??!! Pretentious!

And I felt bad because I felt she's touched on some interesting issues and started to make some good points, but then there was the bit about not defending some jobs and yes it might have been a job on a weekly magazine but it probably paid someone's rent and bills. A real mixture, this article.

C- lauriepenny I felt you could have done a lot better with this article given the subject.

 

[butchersapron]

Wow,

Do we need to mourn every lost job without further comment, even in an industry that’s becoming toxic?

sounds like those who argued the printers should be defeated because of page 3. Who is the 'we' here? Whose job?

(Lord, can i really start on this article tonight?)

 

[frogwoman]

They are usually indeed "right on" lefties, despise anything that can be considered nationalistic of their own country, and claim to despise all forms of nationalism, unless it's branded as a legitimate struggle for liberation. But it's well documented that they will often side with all sorts of nasty reactionary groups if it means opposing "Western imperialism", unaware that there are rival imperialisms out there that are just as harmful.

well there were a few people in psc who i heard expressing anti-semitic views on a few occasions, but i don't think they're representative of most of the country, they werent even that representative of psc and you'd expect to find that sort of shit there a lot more than you would down the pub for example

 

[frogwoman]

Wow,


sounds like those who argued the printers should be defeated because of page 3. Who is the 'we' here? Whose job?

What's she going on about?

 

[butchersapron]

What's she going on about?

It's an explanation of why she never joined the NUJ and why she now edits a paper that refuses to recognise unions. Because people who work on other mags can be put out of a job and she will be happy because she doesn't agree with them.

 

[cesare]

It's an explanation of why she never joined the NUJ and why she now edits a paper that refuses to recognise unions. Because people who work on other mags can be put out of a job and she will be happy because she doesn't agree with them.

I'm not sure she has that level of self awareness and capacity for analysis.

 

[butchersapron]

I'm not sure she has that level of self awareness and capacity for analysis.

Indeed. It's just individual reactions around if she likes this or that. A child being fed at a table. No politics. No political understanding. Nothing beyond her.

 

[butchersapron]

The class and gender issues behind this have been brewing for years. In a media industry staggering under the one-two punch of the internet and the recession, women are the last hired and the first fired. Certainly we are the very last to be promoted or fairly paid, as too many angry private rants from my contemporaries have lately reminded me.

From the lastest. What class issues (note note the reduction of class to an identity)? Never mentioned again, just used to tick a box.

 

[butchersapron]

If you want to liberate the means of cultural production, you have to acknowledge that there's not a small risk that that process of liberation will leave many of us penniless, if we aren't already.

OK, what are the cultural MOP? Established mags. What does liberating them mean? Having more private school people talk for and in them or w/c people taking them over and kicking out people like LP? Does she support the latter? If so, how? She means, same ownership model, mags that i don't like out of business, compulsory redundancies. This is into real dangerous territory here.

(the pathetic shriveled idea of culture that this is based on is utterly destroying in itself)

 

[sihhi]

(Lord, can i really start on this article tonight?)

Hyenas. And what a brave left wing magazine. Long live the CDU! Long live works councils with Maoists as leaders who trade jobs for scraps of pensions! Long live immigrant families of 7 burning whole to death in homes without central heating! Long live a Special Branch cell assisting far-rightists in living their serial killer fantasies!

 

[sihhi]

It’s rather like the tense discussion that comes up in activist circles whenever the police go on strike.

1919 had "activist circles".

I’m good friends with a number of them

What does "good friends" mean? People you shaft as being not worthy.