Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[Steel Icarus]

I just questioned someone who in response to this bit of an article by Stella Duffy

I find the term "intersectionality" to be both classist and educationalist - or rather, not the term itself but the way the (Suzanne Moore) Twitter fight had people using it as if everyone knew what they meant. Working-class me, non-academic me, often finds those terms daunting

...

that tone of debate, especially when it gets very academic, not only shuts me out, but also makes me feel badly-educated, incapable of engaging, and stupid

said it "does that horrible thing "wahhh understanding other people's struggles is too hard for me because WORKING CLASS".

I said I reckon the article doesn't say that, and it's a valid point about inaccessible language, then some other person patronised me, and told me I'd be first against the wall and then blocked me.

Rather proved the article's point I think.

http://stelladuffy.wordpress.com/2013/01/11/headparapet/

 

[weepiper]

I just questioned someone who in response to this bit of an article by Stella Duffy


...


said it "does that horrible thing "wahhh understanding other people's struggles is too hard for me because WORKING CLASS".

I said I reckon the article doesn't say that, and it's a valid point about inaccessible language, then some other person patronised me, and told me I'd be first against the wall and then blocked me.

Rather proved the article's point I think.

http://stelladuffy.wordpress.com/2013/01/11/headparapet/

oh ffs. I was reading that article the other day and thinking 'yep... yep... yep' as I read it.

 

[smokedout]

Moore responds in the comments on that piece

"Thank you Stella and thank you for the great discussion here. I was rude and angry and not at all polite. I had been told amongst other things I should be decapitated, have a dank odour and worse that I support the EDL???
Words are my job. Trans language and the binary language of Cis etc I reject. I question this kind of dogma. In my real life remember that? Guess what I likes some trans people and not others ? Just like all people.
A lot of the attack on me is that I should have been more polite . Sorry but thats where I won’t back down. Polite to people who wish me dead but have not bothered to read what I wrote. No I am not lady like in this way. I am human and the abuse got to me. If you want to engage with “powerful journalists” dont expect them never to have any feelings?
I have great fun on twitter and thats also part of the problem. My flip humour does not work for the literal minded and thats life I guess.
The bad thing I said about men lopping off their dicks: Clearly thats a fantasy and NEVER HAPPENS though strangely I have met many trans people who have indeed paid a fortune to have this happen. Obvs I know the tissue is then re-used etc but this is twitter.
As I said anger is an energy . And I have it. I thank those who have supported me. I can come back on twitter and have a clean guardian type feed where i RT my pieces and never say anything offensive. I see thats how many journos operate and its not my style and never has been. I am not silenced or bullied ,I just thought lets leave it or take it outside. The trans activists most incensed are a vocal minority doing no favours for any kind of sisterhood. I am only sad that the two pieces this week one of female anger and one asking for solidarity should result in me being public enemy No 1 for 15 seconds. So I ask whose side are you on ? Cos George Osborne must be shaking in his boots right now?
Here is to the kindness of strangers, men, women ,trans that I have experienced this week , And fuck the begrudgers.
XX"

all of them, me, me fucking me on and on and on

 

[Balbi]

It's almost as if she knows she's made a mistake, but is prevaricating around the subject and bringing in consequences of her own actions as excuses for her actions. Essentially, it's a childs apology.

 

[Steel Icarus]

Yeah, she should at least have had the grace by now to say sorry I fucked up, but now of course it's far too late for it to sound sincere. And as far as I saw it happen, she started kicking off the minute someone challenged about the "Brazilian Transsexuals" thing, rather than saying "Alright, I'll take that on board".

Fucking hell, I'm sounding like I'm into privilege checking or some shit

 

[cesare]

It's not privilege checking to observe that someone's been stupid and hasn't got the grace to put it right.

 

[Balbi]

Not so much privilege as just 'don't be a twat'

 

[Steel Icarus]

It's not privilege checking to observe that someone's been stupid and hasn't got the grace to put it right.

Yeah, this is how I feel about all this kind of stuff. You don't need to be told to check yr privilege - cos that comes with a whole set of assumptions. Just don't be a twat to people. Same thing. Why the scoldy language? I can't think of anyone I know that if told to check their privilege wouldn't be either confused (and then you have to have "don't be a twat to people" put in someone else's language, not yours, and on their terms) or just burst out laughing at the pretentiousness of it.

ETA Great minds etc, Balbi.

 

[cesare]

The Queeriodical comment on the Stella Duffy piece was useful.

 

[sihhi]

It's a tiny error turned into a mountain of self-righteousness on both sides, Julie Burchill being the most glaring example

 

[cesare]

Yeah, this is how I feel about all this kind of stuff. You don't need to be told to check yr privilege - cos that comes with a whole set of assumptions. Just don't be a twat to people. Same thing. Why the scoldy language? I can't think of anyone I know that if told to check their privilege wouldn't be either confused (and then you have to have "don't be a twat to people" put in someone else's language, not yours, and on their terms) or just burst out laughing at the pretentiousness of it.

ETA Great minds etc, Balbi.

I think the useful part of privilege checking is reminding yourself to check your own, not telling other people to do it.

 

[Steel Icarus]

The Queeriodical comment on the Stella Duffy piece was useful.

Ta, I'll find that later then. 3 yr old now pestering me for her "computer time"

 

[fractionMan]

It's a tiny error turned into a mountain of self-righteousness on both sides, Julie Burchill being the most glaring example

some grey bloke ftw

 

[cesare]

Ta, I'll find that later then. 3 yr old now pestering me for her "computer time"

You just need to scroll down through the comments! Once the lass has her go on the pooter

 

[audiotech]

That's all they will have wanted; some smart arse bloke reading up on feminism so that he can make out he is enlightened

I dropped in the the word patriarchy a few times.

 

[audiotech]

Have you read it?

I know what you're saying, but I'm waiting for solicitors (shit happens) to call and I've a course to attend for the first time today, so you'll have to excuse me.

Edit: Bollocks! A blanket of snow is forming up here.

 

[el-ahrairah]

I think that the radfems are as bad as, if not worse than, misogynists. They make me really cross.

they're really not that bad. i know a load of them and they're definitely on the side of good.

 

[Pickman's model]

they're really not that bad. i know a load of them and they're definitely on the side of good.

the road to hell is paved with good intentions

 

[Pickman's model]

Edit: Bollocks! A blanket of snow is forming up here.

a blanket? do you mean it is snowing?

 

[Balbi]

I think the useful part of privilege checking is reminding yourself to check your own, not telling other people to do it.

It's standpoint stuff - if you know your own identity, it'll allow you to be less of an idiot when interacting with people with different experiences. If you want to be though.

 

[el-ahrairah]

it isn't just men they hate, it's everyone who doesn't agree 100% with them. they seem to hate straight women and transsexuals more than they hate men.

this is definitely not true. though i disagree with their stance on transsexuals, i understand the theory behind it. they are ok with straight women, though disappointed that their views are not more widely appreciated! but that applies to pretty much every interest group!

 

[Pickman's model]

this is definitely not true. though i disagree with their stance on transsexuals, i understand the theory behind it. they are ok with straight women, though disappointed that their views are not more widely appreciated! but that applies to pretty much every interest group!

so now they're just an interest group.

 

[el-ahrairah]

Don't let the strident middle class Burchills and Bindels talk for all of them.

Julie Bindel isn't middle class.

 

[el-ahrairah]

yeah sorry, i know that website doesn't speak for everyone who calls themselves a radical feminist. its a disgrace that these people are appropriating the language of feminism to their own purposes.

so you're telling them what being a feminist is now?

their purpose is complete and total social and cultural female equality. you may disagree with their methods or theory but they most definitely are feminists.

 

[frogwoman]

so you're telling them what being a feminist is now?

their purpose is complete and total social and cultural female equality. you may disagree with their methods or theory but they most definitely are feminists.

What about the ones who talk about the "PinV" stuff?

 

[The39thStep]

Remarkably outside of the commeentariat gold fish bowl there is a much better Twitter row around Joey Barton

Joseph Barton @Joey7Barton 22h
@Tim_Burgess have you ever thought why the ethnic demographic has,over a prolonged period of time, done so well in the UK? Prepared to graft

 

[Balbi]

Some of them, like in all groups, are absolutely batshit though

 

[weepiper]

Remarkably outside of the commeentariat gold fish bowl there is a much better Twitter row around Joey Barton

Been following that. Criticising benefits claimants from the position of earning £70k a week.

 

[el-ahrairah]

It's 'radical feminism' because it gets to the root.

it's radical because it is not liberal.

 

[Balbi]

Been following that. Criticising benefits claimants from the position of earning £70k a week.

I await the 'but Barton's been nicked for street violence, and done time, he's oppressed working class' comment.